Born again abortion clinics

[OKgrannie]

Is this the way to eliminate abortion? To Troy Newman it's just a game--winning or losing.

The Exorcists

"When Troy Newman would answer the phone at Central Women's Services in Wichita, Kansas, last summer, there was a lot he didn't mention. The priests who'd been arrested for blocking the abortion clinic's door. The "truth truck" parked nearby with its billboard of an aborted fetus. The pickets at employees' homes. He didn't talk about how all of this had caused the clinic to shut down, save for its still- functioning phone system. He would press the receiver to his ear and intone, "Women's clinic!" And when a nervous voice at the other end of the line would inquire about abortion services, he would furrow his brow and ask, "Don't you know that's a baby?"

The best place to preach against an abortion clinic, Newman has found, is from within one. The national president of Operation Rescue, he bought the clinic—shuttered last May after the pro-life outfit had laid siege to it for more than 15 years—through a front group; now he's turning it into his organization's headquarters, complete with a prayer garden and a memorial to the 50,000 unborn children he claims were murdered there.

As pro-lifers have winnowed the number of abortion providers in America by nearly 25 percent since the early 1990s—Wichita now has just one—Operation Rescue has joined several anti-abortion groups converting clinics to their own purposes. "What better way to show that we are winning and demoralize the enemy," Newman says, "than by shutting down an abortion mill, throwing out the tenants on their face, and taking it over as our headquarters? You lose, we win.""

 

[Spartacus FPV]

They think real estate conquest and fraud equates to any kind of a strategic victory? F**king nutjobs.

 

[doughgirl]

Oh come on guys.......if its legal its moral right?

Anyone can purchase an abortion clinic can't they? And if anyone can purchase a business they have the right to shut it down dont they?

They aren't doing anything wrong, they are law abiding citizens aret they>? :rofl

 

[talloulou]

I don't like abortion. I think it's barbaric. That said though I don't believe any women who've already chosen to abort should spend the remainder of their lives racked with guilt. What was done is done and you don't fix anything by exploiting feelings of regret. I hardly see the point of naming the aborted babies or building memorials to "those murdered." That's like taking the barbaric act of abortion and somehow making it even worse by exploiting the deaths of those humans. There's something very gross about that. Just as there is something very gross about the crucifix. I mean come on bone crusher machines?

I do think women should be educated about what an abortion is and a look into the slop buckets of the abortion mills would probably go a long way in converting many prochoicers. There's nothing like being slapped with reality so to speak and the prochoice contingent does tend to refute any and all pictures of the reality of abortion. However it seems to me that what this guy is doing is preying on women who have already made a bad choice and I wouldn't exactly trust his chosen methods for any "healing" a woman might legitmately need.

Signs featuring slogans like "The Gates of Hell" are hardly productive. If you genuinely want to make the world a better place and encourage respect for all human life there are far better ways to go about it. You're not going to rid the world of barbaric practices by acting like a freaking barbarian yourself.

 

[rivrrat]

Oh come on guys.......if its legal its moral right?

Maybe your morals are determined by laws, but mine sure aren't. Legal /= moral, and illegal /= immoral by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyone can purchase an abortion clinic can't they? And if anyone can purchase a business they have the right to shut it down dont they?

They aren't doing anything wrong, they are law abiding citizens aret they>? :rofl

Law abiding doesn't make one "right". While what they are doing may be legal, they are detestable human beings for doing it.

 

[tecoyah]

Oh come on guys.......if its legal its moral right?

Anyone can purchase an abortion clinic can't they? And if anyone can purchase a business they have the right to shut it down dont they?

They aren't doing anything wrong, they are law abiding citizens aret they>? :rofl

It certainly shows they have far more money than the "Doctors Getting Rich" by murdering the unborn. What a wonderful way to spend the coin from the collection plate.

 

[rivrrat]

I do think women should be educated about what an abortion is and a look into the slop buckets of the abortion mills would probably go a long way in converting many prochoicers. There's nothing like being slapped with reality so to speak and the prochoice contingent does tend to refute any and all pictures of the reality of abortion. However it seems to me that what this guy is doing is preying on women who have already made a bad choice and I wouldn't exactly trust his chosen methods for any "healing" a woman might legitmately need.

Actually, I liken that to vegans trying to show me the 'slop buckets' that come from butchering animals for food. Everybody knows an animal is killed when meat is manufactured. Everyone knows that an animal is killed in butcher shops. I know an animal is killed. While I don't wish to see said 'slop bucket' because it's definitely gross.... that doesn't mean that I disagree with the killing of said animal. And, every person who eats meat shouldn't have to be subjected to watching said animal get butchered.

 

[talloulou]

Actually, I liken that to vegans trying to show me the 'slop buckets' that come from butchering animals for food. Everybody knows an animal is killed when meat is manufactured. Everyone knows that an animal is killed in butcher shops. I know an animal is killed. While I don't wish to see said 'slop bucket' because it's definitely gross.... that doesn't mean that I disagree with the killing of said animal. And, every person who eats meat shouldn't have to be subjected to watching said animal get butchered.

Well that's kind of off topic. However in my opinion we are too far removed from what we eat. And given that you are what you eat to a certain extent I don't think there is anything wrong with a little education about factory farms. I don't approve of PETA however I also don't approve of animal cruelty. While I don't think I personally could give up ALL meat I don't eat it as much as the average person. And when I do eat it I try to buy organic, free range stuff. Personally I'd rather eat an animal that was treated well while it was alive than eat something that spent its life being tortured and drugged. So no not everyone who eats meat should watch animals get butchered but it would serve us well, in my opinion, to become educated about the living conditions of the meat we do eat. Some animals are kept in such horrible conditions that they must be continuously pumped with antibiotics just to keep them alive till they are fat enough to butcher. There is some sick $hit out there and eating animalsl kept in blatantly horrible conditions can't possibly be good for us. Nor, is it necessary to be so cruel to our "food" while said food is living. Just my two cents.

 

[jallman]

Oh come on guys.......if its legal its moral right?

Anyone can purchase an abortion clinic can't they? And if anyone can purchase a business they have the right to shut it down dont they?

They aren't doing anything wrong, they are law abiding citizens aret they>? :rofl

And it becomes very clear that the pro-life movement is about nothing more than contention, disrespect, and making sure them damned women suffer for having had sex. You people are disgusting.

 

[talloulou]

And it becomes very clear that the pro-life movement is about nothing more than contention, disrespect, and making sure them damned women suffer for having had sex. You people are disgusting.

Well truth be told there's plenty of "disgusting" to go around.

 

[rivrrat]

Well that's kind of off topic. However in my opinion we are too far removed from what we eat. And given that you are what you eat to a certain extent I don't think there is anything wrong with a little education about factory farms. I don't approve of PETA however I also don't approve of animal cruelty. While I don't think I personally could give up ALL meat I don't eat it as much as the average person. And when I do eat it I try to buy organic, free range stuff. Personally I'd rather eat an animal that was treated well while it was alive than eat something that spent its life being tortured and drugged. So no not everyone who eats meat should watch animals get butchered but it would serve us well, in my opinion, to become educated about the living conditions of the meat we do eat. Some animals are kept in such horrible conditions that they must be continuously pumped with antibiotics just to keep them alive till they are fat enough to butcher. There is some sick $hit out there and eating animalsl kept in blatantly horrible conditions can't possibly be good for us. Nor, is it necessary to be so cruel to our "food" while said food is living. Just my two cents.

The full topic itself may be off topic, but I don't think the comparison is.

Anti-choice folks want to show disgusting images to women who intend to abort in an effort to .... sway them to their point of view?

Vegan want to show disgusting images to meat-eaters in an effort to.... sway them to their point of view?

Education is always a good thing, IMO. People *should* make educated choices. But there is a difference between education and just plain sensationalism designed to 'gross people out'.

If showing someone a butcher's slop bucket won't make them stop eating meat, what makes you think that showing a woman a 'slop bucket' is going to make them change their mind about abortion? Many medical procedures have ugly aspects. Ever watch a surgery? It's disgusting to most people. Yet, knowing that it's disgusting to look at isn't exactly going to sway someone from having said surgery or procedure.

As I said, there's a distinct difference between education and 'grossing people out' just for the sake of doing it. Showing someone a butcher's slop bucket, or an abortion slop bucket, or a liposuction slop bucket doesn't educate.

 

[jallman]

Well truth be told there's plenty of "disgusting" to go around.

Maybe you want to elaborate. I am in a mood to go toe to toe with someone who can take the abuse today. :mrgreen:

 

[talloulou]

As I said, there's a distinct difference between education and 'grossing people out' just for the sake of doing it. Showing someone a butcher's slop bucket, or an abortion slop bucket, or a liposuction slop bucket doesn't educate.

I hear what you're saying and yeah things can get pretty gross to the point where you are just being gross for the sake of being gross. That said though I didn't realize just how bad animals are treated until I saw it first hand. It's one thing to hear about cruelty vs. witnessing it. Hearing about people blah blah blah on and on about how cruel something is unfortunately is fairly easy to ignore. Seeing it with your own eyes makes it less easy to ignore.

As far as abortion goes I do think seeing an actual fetus at varying stages of development in a pickle jar would be highly educational. I don't think women who've had abortions should be forced to deal with signs about the gates of hell and images of "bone crushers" but given that abortion is legal in our country I do think part of sex education should be legitmate credible photos of various fetal stages as well as some pickle jars containing various fetal bodies in jars. It's gotten far to easy to just deny what a fetus is and cling to claims of "clumps of tissue." The proof is in the pudding so to speak. I think its gotten far too easy for the prochoice contingent to declare any and all photos "not credible" while failing all the while to produce credible photos themselves. Nothing wrong with actually looking at the topic of discussion. The point should be to inform and educate more so than to disgust.

 

[talloulou]

Maybe you want to elaborate. I am in a mood to go toe to toe with someone who can take the abuse today. :mrgreen:

Hot damn you're in a mood and I have to sign off! Unfortunately I'm working a scholastic book fair all week. So I can't be checking in as much as usual. I gotta eat lunch and run. Feel free to vent your mood and I'll take a look at it tomorrow morning if I get a chance.

 

[jallman]

Is this the way to eliminate abortion? To Troy Newman it's just a game--winning or losing.

The Exorcists

"When Troy Newman would answer the phone at Central Women's Services in Wichita, Kansas, last summer, there was a lot he didn't mention. The priests who'd been arrested for blocking the abortion clinic's door. The "truth truck" parked nearby with its billboard of an aborted fetus. The pickets at employees' homes. He didn't talk about how all of this had caused the clinic to shut down, save for its still- functioning phone system. He would press the receiver to his ear and intone, "Women's clinic!" And when a nervous voice at the other end of the line would inquire about abortion services, he would furrow his brow and ask, "Don't you know that's a baby?"

The best place to preach against an abortion clinic, Newman has found, is from within one. The national president of Operation Rescue, he bought the clinic—shuttered last May after the pro-life outfit had laid siege to it for more than 15 years—through a front group; now he's turning it into his organization's headquarters, complete with a prayer garden and a memorial to the 50,000 unborn children he claims were murdered there.

As pro-lifers have winnowed the number of abortion providers in America by nearly 25 percent since the early 1990s—Wichita now has just one—Operation Rescue has joined several anti-abortion groups converting clinics to their own purposes. "What better way to show that we are winning and demoralize the enemy," Newman says, "than by shutting down an abortion mill, throwing out the tenants on their face, and taking it over as our headquarters? You lose, we win.""

If we want to get legalistic about it, then what needs to be done is take a complaint to the medical board and inform them that he is still advertising as a women's clinic and then sue the hell out of him. Re-open the clinic with the proceeds.

 

[doughgirl]

“Law abiding doesn't make one "right".

I agree 100%, especially with the issue of abortion. Even though I see abortion as immoral, abortion is legal so society sees it as such.

Slavery wasn’t seen as immoral either before it was banned was it?

“Maybe your morals are determined by laws, but mine sure aren't. Legal /= moral, and illegal /= immoral by any stretch of the imagination.”

Well you have to follow the laws don't you? And our laws do affect us all whether we like it or not.

“While what they are doing may be legal, they are detestable human beings for doing it.”

Why? Because they seek to shut down abortion clinics and they DO IT LEGALLY?

I am sure in time someone with big bucks who is pro-abortion will come along and reopen them. And I am sure you would support them doing so, right?

What is detestable is abortion.

Talloulou said, “You're not going to rid the world of barbaric practices by acting like a freaking barbarian yourself.’

They did however stop abortions being performed at that clinic did they not? You might not like how they did it even though its legal….but abortions are no longer performed there. I’d say that is a plus.

Tecoyah said, “It certainly shows they have far more money than the "Doctors Getting Rich" by murdering the unborn. What a wonderful way to spend the coin from the collection plate.”

You sound bitter that children are no longer aborted there tecoyah? That coin wherever it came from will prevent others from being dismembered alive. To bad you see that as a negative.

Rivrat said, “Actually, I liken that to vegans trying to show me the 'slop buckets' that come from butchering animals for food. Everybody knows an animal is killed when meat is manufactured. Everyone knows that an animal is killed in butcher shops. I know an animal is killed. While I don't wish to see said 'slop bucket' because it's definitely gross.... that doesn't mean that I disagree with the killing of said animal. And, every person who eats meat shouldn't have to be subjected to watching said animal get butchered.”

One big difference I don’t think you see, but then maybe you place an animals life as equal to a humans I don’t know.……But to me slop buckets from animal remains are not equal to slop buckets full of human beings remains. There is a huge difference.

Jallman said, “And it becomes very clear that the pro-life movement is about nothing more than contention, disrespect, and making sure them damned women suffer for having had sex. You people are disgusting.”

What they did was legal was it not? You don’t like it but its legal. I have to view the abortion clinics I stand in front of the same way. What they are doing is immoral in my eyes, but its legal and I have to respect that while I am there and my behavior has to reflect that.

It still remains sad to me that you never see the inhumanity for the life being dismembered. It is a non issue for you. That you think a mistake is made right by another mistake on top of it, that in your mind two wrongs make a right ????? I find that disgusting. But then that is the mentality of those who are pro-abortion.

“Vegan want to show disgusting images to meat-eaters in an effort to.... sway them to their point of view?’

I see the comparison of what your trying to show. The only thing I dissagree with is the value of the two things you are trying to compare. You can't see an animals life as equal as a human being. Do you?

Talloulou said, “The point should be to inform and educate more so than to disgust.”

I agree but sometimes a picture speaks a thousands words. Like the pictures of the Holocaust. No one would have ever imagined or believed the horrors that went on there without pictures to document it.
How about the pictures from Abu Ghraib? No one would have believed it. Should pictures such as these not be shown?

“If we want to get legalistic about it, then what needs to be done is take a complaint to the medical board and inform them that he is still advertising as a women's clinic and then sue the hell out of him. Re-open the clinic with the proceeds.’

And do all womens clinics have to offer abortions? I don’t think so.

Reopen so the killing can continue. Bravo……

 

[rivrrat]

Slavery wasn’t seen as immoral either before it was banned was it?

Some people saw it as immoral, regardless of the legality of it. To this day, some people still see it as moral, regardless of the legality issue.

Well you have to follow the laws don't you?

Not so much, no. I break quite a few quite a bit of the time. It's just a matter of not getting caught.

And our laws do affect us all whether we like it or not.

Of course they affect us. Some of them even prevent us from doing what we should, by all rights, be legally allowed to do.

What is detestable is abortion.

What is detestable is forcing ones morals on someone else.

One big difference I don’t think you see, but then maybe you place an animals life as equal to a humans I don’t know.……But to me slop buckets from animal remains are not equal to slop buckets full of human beings remains. There is a huge difference.

Humans are animals. And until a human is actually an individual, thinking, sentient *person*, the comparison to other animals is perfectly valid.

It still remains sad to me that you never see the inhumanity for the life being dismembered. It is a non issue for you. That you think a mistake is made right by another mistake on top of it, that in your mind two wrongs make a right ????? I find that disgusting. But then that is the mentality of those who are pro-abortion.

Of course it's a non-issue. It's a non-person being killed. Much like that piece of cow I ate for lunch... a non-person.

I see the comparison of what your trying to show. The only thing I dissagree with is the value of the two things you are trying to compare. You can't see an animals life as equal as a human being. Do you?

In some cases, absolutely. Especially regarding certain people in the world.

However, While I may favor my own species of animal over another animal, that doesn't mean I don't recognize that a member of my species that is not an individual, cannot think, isn't sentient and thus isn't a person as actually less than other animals. At least the cow provides me food. An embryo/fetus offers me nothing.

 

[jallman]

What they did was legal was it not?

That is up for debate. Sure, buying the abortion clinic may very well be legal, however, keeping it "open" and intentionally misleading the public by impersonating a medical professional is not: Criminal impersonation is a class 6 felony.

Further, I see a clear case for Reckless Endangerment by offering "advice" when a caller is clearly looking for medical treatment, which is what abortion is whether you like it or not.

I have already made a point of sending the article and my thoughts on this idiot's tactics to the attorney general's office of Kansas and to the DA's office in Wichita. It is great to be connected.

 

[OKgrannie]

I agree 100%, especially with the issue of abortion. Even though I see abortion as immoral, abortion is legal so society sees it as such.
Slavery wasn’t seen as immoral either before it was banned was it?

Few people look to government to proclaim what is moral or immoral. LOL, look around at the immorality in government; would you trust those people to establish morality?

Well you have to follow the laws don't you? And our laws do affect us all whether we like it or not.

No, people do not have to follow the laws, they can follow their own consciences. And laws criminalizing abortion certainly didn't stop them in the past.

They did however stop abortions being performed at that clinic did they not? You might not like how they did it even though its legal….but abortions are no longer performed there. I’d say that is a plus.

How did stopping abortions at that location affect the total numbers performed?

One big difference I don’t think you see, but then maybe you place an animals life as equal to a humans I don’t know.……But to me slop buckets from animal remains are not equal to slop buckets full of human beings remains. There is a huge difference.

I'll bet a casual glance would not show a "huge difference", in fact, I'll bet a non-medical person couldn't tell the difference.

What they did was legal was it not? You don’t like it but its legal. I have to view the abortion clinics I stand in front of the same way. What they are doing is immoral in my eyes, but its legal and I have to respect that while I am there and my behavior has to reflect that.

Not if they were guilty of fraud.

 

[FallingPianos]

I hear what you're saying and yeah things can get pretty gross to the point where you are just being gross for the sake of being gross. That said though I didn't realize just how bad animals are treated until I saw it first hand. It's one thing to hear about cruelty vs. witnessing it. Hearing about people blah blah blah on and on about how cruel something is unfortunately is fairly easy to ignore. Seeing it with your own eyes makes it less easy to ignore.

As far as abortion goes I do think seeing an actual fetus at varying stages of development in a pickle jar would be highly educational. I don't think women who've had abortions should be forced to deal with signs about the gates of hell and images of "bone crushers" but given that abortion is legal in our country I do think part of sex education should be legitmate credible photos of various fetal stages as well as some pickle jars containing various fetal bodies in jars. It's gotten far to easy to just deny what a fetus is and cling to claims of "clumps of tissue." The proof is in the pudding so to speak. I think its gotten far too easy for the prochoice contingent to declare any and all photos "not credible" while failing all the while to produce credible photos themselves. Nothing wrong with actually looking at the topic of discussion. The point should be to inform and educate more so than to disgust.

the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry has had an exhibit of just that for at least 15 years. the exhibit has about 30 embryos and fetuses in glass containers on display going around a circular room in order of gestation. they range from the size of a dot to a full term fetus. below each one, is an explanation that states the age and sex of each one, and some key points of development at that stage. that exhibit has always been my favorite one at the museum.

 

[Cephus]

There's no reason they can't do this, any more than they can have those stupid 'Hell Houses' at Halloween, but in the end, it's just laughable and isn't going to do anything. If they want to waste their time and money, that's fine with me though, so long as they don't lie to anyone about their intentions.

 

[jallman]

There's no reason they can't do this, any more than they can have those stupid 'Hell Houses' at Halloween, but in the end, it's just laughable and isn't going to do anything. If they want to waste their time and money, that's fine with me though, so long as they don't lie to anyone about their intentions.

The lying part, especially when lying or misleading someone into believing they are a medical facility, is called criminal impersonation and carries a class 6 felony charge. I got word today from my contact in Wichita that she will be instigating a closer look at this organization and any possible criminal activity. :mrgreen:

 

[Cephus]

The lying part, especially when lying or misleading someone into believing they are a medical facility, is called criminal impersonation and carries a class 6 felony charge. I got word today from my contact in Wichita that she will be instigating a closer look at this organization and any possible criminal activity. :mrgreen:

If that's the case, then certainly they should be shut down, not for opposing abortion, but for lying about it and misrepresenting themselves. But then again, anti-abortionists aren't really well known for being all that honest and forthcoming anyhow. Years and years ago when I was a clinic escort, the clinic offered the protesters outside an office inside the clinic, they just had to pay the rent and couldn't yell and scream at anyone, but they were more than welcome to set up shop and counsel anyone who wanted their help. They turned it down, of course, they'd rather throw things at pregnant women and yell insults.

 

[jallman]

If that's the case, then certainly they should be shut down, not for opposing abortion, but for lying about it and misrepresenting themselves. But then again, anti-abortionists aren't really well known for being all that honest and forthcoming anyhow. Years and years ago when I was a clinic escort, the clinic offered the protesters outside an office inside the clinic, they just had to pay the rent and couldn't yell and scream at anyone, but they were more than welcome to set up shop and counsel anyone who wanted their help. They turned it down, of course, they'd rather throw things at pregnant women and yell insults.

I am not surprised. As was pointed out, with very few rare exceptions like felicity, fantasea, jerry, and talloullou, the pro-life philosophy is one of penalty for the woman and not compassion for the so-called unborn.

If you look at a pro-life rally, it is reminiscent of a Cindy Sheehan led anti-war rally. Nothing more than a circus.

 

[Jerry]

Is this the way to eliminate abortion? To Troy Newman it's just a game--winning or losing.

The Exorcists

"When Troy Newman would answer the phone at Central Women's Services in Wichita, Kansas, last summer, there was a lot he didn't mention. The priests who'd been arrested for blocking the abortion clinic's door. The "truth truck" parked nearby with its billboard of an aborted fetus. The pickets at employees' homes. He didn't talk about how all of this had caused the clinic to shut down, save for its still- functioning phone system. He would press the receiver to his ear and intone, "Women's clinic!" And when a nervous voice at the other end of the line would inquire about abortion services, he would furrow his brow and ask, "Don't you know that's a baby?"

The best place to preach against an abortion clinic, Newman has found, is from within one. The national president of Operation Rescue, he bought the clinic—shuttered last May after the pro-life outfit had laid siege to it for more than 15 years—through a front group; now he's turning it into his organization's headquarters, complete with a prayer garden and a memorial to the 50,000 unborn children he claims were murdered there.

As pro-lifers have winnowed the number of abortion providers in America by nearly 25 percent since the early 1990s—Wichita now has just one—Operation Rescue has joined several anti-abortion groups converting clinics to their own purposes. "What better way to show that we are winning and demoralize the enemy," Newman says, "than by shutting down an abortion mill, throwing out the tenants on their face, and taking it over as our headquarters? You lose, we win.""

I don't know what's more entertaining: radical Pro-Lifers or PC's reactions to them.

Go ahead, give them more publicity....you did charge, right?