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Black violent crime rate 3 times that of whitess

Victims of what?
 

No they can’t. Because we could always have an economy where a mother could have a child and not be in poverty.
 
NatMorton said:
Poverty in America isn't only about race, and if whites are systematically orchestrating bad outcomes for minorities one might reasonably ask why they're systematically orchestrating themselves into second place.
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And why do they continue to "orchestrate themselves into second place"?

If it's culture, then it is necessarily an upstream issue. Culture is informed by higher order categories.
 
NatMorton said:
No, I'm saying your assertion is childishly absurd.
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What assertion? That oligarchs have massively outsized political voice in our country?

I still I’m curious to know if SOME regulations on these oligarchs are OK- or we should just let the free market take care of it all and it will all work out for the best?
 
Gozaburo said:
And why do they continue to "orchestrate themselves into second place"?

If it's culture, then it is necessarily an upstream issue. Culture is informed by higher order categories.
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What is an "upstream issue" in this context?
 
Post 123.
 

Because the largest growth in Asian income in America occurred after the systematical racial discrimination in America by whites was largely banned.
 
NatMorton said:
What is an "upstream issue" in this context?
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Could be a number of things depending on who you ask. Geography, discrimination, structural oppression, genetics, diet, etc.
 
NatMorton said:
^^^ Um, who want to be the first to tell him?
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I know the dictionary definition. That's not how it is being used today when referring to minorities and unless you live under a rock you know that also. Try the Urban Dictionary definition

Urban Dictionary: victimhood

victimhood: Noun. A coveted status sought after by liberals. Victimhood implies that one or more victims are due some form of [compensation] from one or more...
www.urbandictionary.com
 
Gozaburo said:
Could be a number of things depending on who you ask. Geography, discrimination, structural oppression, genetics, diet, etc.
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Then sorry, I really don't understand what point you were making in post 131.
 
Sorry, I speak English, not "Urban."
 
NatMorton said:
Then sorry, I really don't understand what point you were making in post 131.
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The point is calling it "culture" is addressing a symptom, not the cause.

Unless, of course, you're advocating for a pre-civil rights levels of Anglo-cultural chauvinism in the Sowellian sense. Even then, it's dubious whether or not this was actually effective in fostering success in the black community. Data is extremely limited.
 
NatMorton said:
Ah, there we differ. I think culture matters most, and in 2025 it matters more than does today's level of racism.
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Yeah and I'm saying the problem is that cultures aren't created in a vacuum. They're informed by history and created by a people.

The history of those people and their capabilities matter. You're looking at the blueprints of a building and starting construction without any concern of what materials and labor are to be used.
 
Gozaburo said:
Yeah and I'm saying the problem is that cultures aren't created in a vacuum. They're informed by history and created by a people.
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There we agree, but that still leaves culture as a factor, and acting on cultural values is, by and large, a choice.

Gozaburo said:
The history of those people and their capabilities matter. You're looking at the blueprints of a building and starting construction without any concern of what materials and labor are to be used.
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And yet -- independent of race -- where certain voluntary behaviors are avoided, poverty can be avoided, as you saw in post 125.
 
Questerr said:
No they can’t. Because we could always have an economy where a mother could have a child and not be in poverty.
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Most people would rather support their own kids than someone else’s. But if they do they’d rather it be their idea and not the government’s.
 
Questerr said:
No they can’t. Because we could always have an economy where a mother could have a child and not be in poverty.
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Why is this aspirational? Why architect society around a pillar which is already dysfunctional?
 
There is no doubt that poverty among a group is correlated with higher crime rates.

Unfortunately, this is not adequate as a complete explanation of crime statistics for blacks, for two reasons. First, most blacks aren't poor. And second, there are more poor people of other races than there are poor black people. Specifically, there are more poor whites than poor blacks.

So poverty alone just doesn't explain the statistics.

It could be useful to consider that the perpetrators of crimes among blacks are disproportionately a minority of blacks who live in a particular environment. Call it the "ghetto" if no better term comes to mind. People in the ghetto are disproportionately poor compared to other blacks. Also, the ghetto is segregated almost by definition, so the culture in it is insular and self-reinforcing. Since the 1960's, there has been a dramatic erosion in conventional families in these areas (largely caused by well-meaning legislation). So the well-established problems of homes without a male role model are added to the problems of poverty. I think this has resulted in a pathological concept of masculinity that focuses on honor, violence, and relative contempt for law.

Almost all of these pathologies have their roots in historic discrimination, historic forced segregation, and incentivization of benefits dependency and homes without men. To put it more succinctly, a combination of white racism and misguided efforts to "help".

Recognizing these causes is necessary, but not sufficient. Simply being convinced that the current plight of people in ghettos is mainly due to racist history does not help. More is needed. I wish I had a short, simple list of things that would make a difference, but I don't. It certainly would help for government to incentivize enterprise and (if possible) stable families. Affirmative action in hiring and university admission based on economic status rather than race would also help. That would be superior to preference based on race, both from the point of view that race in itself ought not to be the basis of law, and in helping people in a focused way without lumping affluent blacks in with poor blacks, which is wasteful of resources.
 
Questerr said:
Ask the many many many scientists that have done studies on the topic. Poverty is the single most determining factor in criminality across the board, not just with property crimes.
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I don’t think that’s going to go over too well with a judge: “Your Honor, many, many scientists say that I brutally raped and murdered Mrs. Croaker because I’m poor.”
 
MamboDervish said:
You've made an excellent argument in favor of abortion on demand. As if there weren't already plenty of good arguments for it.
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Using a human being as a means to an end in this manner is morally abhorrent to me: “Let’s off this baby because it could become a criminal.” Very dystopian. I would rather put it up for adoption if the parent doesn’t want it.
 

With the exception of maybe the bolded - which I'm not convinced of, but would be willing to hear an argument - can you give an example of these pathologies manifesting in literally any other oppressed population? Even outside of the US, oppression and violence doesn't always seem to manifest in long term bad outcomes. In fact, we can observe the opposite in many cases, where it seems to emphasize solidarity and in-group preference.
 
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