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Bill Clinton on Ukraine: This is our war

j brown's body said:


He's got a point.
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Sounds like BC should have known better. He had no way to guarantee that Putin nor the U.S. future presidents and Congress would honor the deal in the future. Biden even remarked he would likely do nothing in teh event of a minor incursion by Russia. How damned stupid, but then it was Biden.
 
Luce said:
Why? Because you don't like it when people point out that America's word is now worthless?
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Been worthless long before Trump.
 
Phys251 said:
What a stupid question. Google it if you're that interested.
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We have no formal treaties with Ukraine and the Budapest memorandum has no military intervention.Furthermore we've trampled all over the UN charter with all the nations involved as have our colleagues.
 
pedex said:
We have no formal treaties with Ukraine and the Budapest memorandum has no military intervention.Furthermore we've trampled all over the UN charter with all the nations involved as have our colleagues.
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Says the person who arrogantly asked what promises tRump has broken.
 
pedex said:
And you still can't back up your assertion
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Says the person who arrogantly asked what promises tRump has broken.
 
trixare4kids said:
There was a time when former President Clinton made a lot of sense. This is not one of those times.
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Sorry but he is correct.

Budapest Memorandum, look it up.

Short version: The US, UK, and Russia made Ukraine give up nuclear weapons in exchange for security assurances. Russia violated that by invading (multiple times) and the US and UK violated it by letting them.

Sadly, Ukraine was the dupe in this, because the BM is not a treaty, so there are no real legal obligations. They gave up their nuclear deterrents for empty promises.

But it does show that Russia, US, and UK are not dependable countries.
 
j brown's body said:


He's got a point.
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What's up with Bill Clinton and the "we"? Wasn't he President from '92 - '00? He signed off on the bogus commitments and now wants to pretend there's was any teeth to them.

The fact about it was as the Soviet Union was collapsing a multiplicity of nuclear armed states could emerge from it. At the very least Ukraine, Belarus, Russia, Kazakhstan. These were the Soviet Republics that actually had Soviet nukes deployed on them. Or worst case scenario each ex Soviet Socialist Republic inherited nukes. These were the most undesirable outcomes from the western point of view.

The outcome most preferred by the west was only one state inherited all the Soviet nukes. That meant the Russian Federation as inheritor of the defunct Soviet Union. That meant Belarus, Kazakhstan, not just Ukraine, gave up Soviet nukes that had been deployed on their territories.

Bill Clinton was President then, and oversaw all that. Now he is trying to pretend it was all someone else's fault.

And isn't hindsight lovely? Back in 1991 who in the west, maybe in the east as well, was supposed to have foreseen how things would turn out in 2014?
 
trixare4kids said:
There was a time when former President Clinton made a lot of sense. This is not one of those times.
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He is actually outright lying. Bill Clinton is claiming it was Ukraine’s nukes. That's a bald face lie. It's like saying United States nukes deployed in say Nevada or Colorado were the properties of the States of Nevada and Colorado.

As the Soviet Union unraveled the nightmare outcome the west dreaded was a multiplicity of nuclear armed States emerging. Slick Willie ignores the fact that if Ukraine kept the Soviet nukes on its territory then Belarus and Kazakhstan could have also kept theirs. In which case at least four nuclear armed states- Russia, Belarus, Ukraine, Kazakhstan- would have emerged from the Soviet Union. Which was the last thing the west, led by Clinton, wanted.

And even though Soviet nukes were deployed in Ukraine, Kazakhstan, Belarus, those states never had operational control over them. Just as the State of Nevada does not have operational control over United States nukes deployed there.

Bill Clinton is a fine man but it is annoying when he tries to distort history.
 
anatta said:
ROFL. Clinton began the process of undermining the gains of the Cold War
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The man is a liar right into the twilight of his life. Clinton lies were he claims the nukes, cruise missiles, strategic bombers belonged to Ukraine. They no more belonged to Ukraine than Ft Sumter belonged to the secessionist state of S Carolina. By all agreements it was the Russian Federation the inheritor state of the Soviet Union.
 
j brown's body said:


He's got a point.
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Presidents who make agreement with other countries are only as good as that president remains president. That is unless the president obtains approval by the senate, making it a treaty. Nixon had made an agreement with Thieu in order to get him to sign off on the Paris Peace Pact that the U.S. would return in full force if Hanoi, North Vietnam broke the Paris Peace Pact. That agreement wasn’t made into a treaty or approved by the senate. Congress didn’t recognize the agreement and when North Vietnam broke the Paris Peace pact, we didn’t abide by the promise or agrement.

You had the G.H.W. Bush/Gorbachev agreement on the peaceful unification of Germany. That Germany once unified would remain a member of NATO, but no further expansion of NATO further east would take place. The agreement wasn’t made a treaty by confirmation by the senate, Bill Clinton broke that agreement by expanding NATO further east. You had the Iran deal between Obama and Iran, no treaty, Trump discarded that agreement. There’s probably quite a lot more where presidents made agreements with other countries but didn’t get those agreement approved by the senate, where the next president discarded the agreements or failed to honor the agreement.

The above three examples were agreements between the president at the time and the country involved, they weren’t an agreement between the United States and the country involved. For that to happen, an agreement between the U.S. and the country, the senate must approve it which in Nixon’s, G.H.W. Bush’s and Obama’s case, that wasn’t done. Thus, leaving the agreement only between Nixon and Thieu, between G.H.W. Bush and Gorbachev, between Obama and Iran, not between the United States and those countries.

Bill Clinton’s promise to protect the Ukraine was an agreement between Bill Clinton and the Ukraine and remained in effect until Bill left office. Future presidents could either abide by that agreement or not as that agreement was between Bill and the Ukraine, not between the United States and the Ukraine. No approval by the senate was obtain, thus what Bill is stating, the agreement wasn’t between the United States and the Ukraine as in the form of a treaty, but just a personal guarantee or agreement. Just like Nixon’s promise to Thieu, G.H.W. Bush’s agreement with Gorbachev and Obama’s deal with Iran.
 
Perotista said:
Presidents who make agreement with other countries are only as good as that president remains president. That is unless the president obtains approval by the senate, making it a treaty. Nixon had made an agreement with Thieu in order to get him to sign off on the Paris Peace Pact that the U.S. would return in full force if Hanoi, North Vietnam broke the Paris Peace Pact. That agreement wasn’t made into a treaty or approved by the senate. Congress didn’t recognize the agreement and when North Vietnam broke the Paris Peace pact, we didn’t abide by the promise or agrement.

You had the G.H.W. Bush/Gorbachev agreement on the peaceful unification of Germany. That Germany once unified would remain a member of NATO, but no further expansion of NATO further east would take place. The agreement wasn’t made a treaty by confirmation by the senate, Bill Clinton broke that agreement by expanding NATO further east. You had the Iran deal between Obama and Iran, no treaty, Trump discarded that agreement. There’s probably quite a lot more where presidents made agreements with other countries but didn’t get those agreement approved by the senate, where the next president discarded the agreements or failed to honor the agreement.

The above three examples were agreements between the president at the time and the country involved, they weren’t an agreement between the United States and the country involved. For that to happen, an agreement between the U.S. and the country, the senate must approve it which in Nixon’s, G.H.W. Bush’s and Obama’s case, that wasn’t done. Thus, leaving the agreement only between Nixon and Thieu, between G.H.W. Bush and Gorbachev, between Obama and Iran, not between the United States and those countries.

Bill Clinton’s promise to protect the Ukraine was an agreement between Bill Clinton and the Ukraine and remained in effect until Bill left office. Future presidents could either abide by that agreement or not as that agreement was between Bill and the Ukraine, not between the United States and the Ukraine. No approval by the senate was obtain, thus what Bill is stating, the agreement wasn’t between the United States and the Ukraine as in the form of a treaty, but just a personal guarantee or agreement. Just like Nixon’s promise to Thieu, G.H.W. Bush’s agreement with Gorbachev and Obama’s deal with Iran.
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Ironically this is one of Putin's issues with Ukraine. He thinks or has stated he thinks that Zelensky once martial law is removed and an election is held will be voted out and any agreements with Ukraine will vanish with it.
 
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