Bible Teaches Universalism

[thatguymd]

Ahhhhh, gotcha. I can respect that for the most part, and I do wonder why aidios wasn't used... I don't know enough about Greek or language translation to make much of a comment though. And I just read the YLT translation of Revelation 20:10, which is interesting, because that version specifies that all three are tormented, while the KJV reading seems to only specify Satan. Anyway, I think we both fully agree that the torment applies to all three.

But I can also try to logically reason this issue out... like, if the lake of fire wasn't fully eternal, but "practically eternal", would that mean that the unholy trinity, just like anything else thrown into the lake of fire, would then eventually get out and "reconcile with God"? That wouldn't make any sense to me, and if that were the position, then I would be much more inclined to take Elvira's position of the lake of fire symbolizing "eternal destruction", which would permanently remove all the "bad" and leave only the "good" to remain in existence. Her and I agree that the "bad" will be removed and only the "good" will remain, but where we disagree is that she believes the bad will be eternally destroyed, while I believe that the bad will eternally exist, but exist completely separate from God ("spiritual death"). Either way, her and I both agree on the part that truly matters, but we have our disagreements on the minor specifics surrounding it.

Also, then one would have to wonder whether heaven was eternal, or "practically eternal"? Or whether our souls were eternal or "practically eternal"... To conclude, I have been led by my studies to believe that people's souls, the new heaven/earth, and the lake of fire are all fully eternal, and will exist outside of time as we know it right now. God has always existed (and will always exist), so I believe that our souls will always exist in a similar fashion.


Good point... Those three definitely had a different experience, and would be the "perfectly fine" person standing right beside the "sweaty thirsty" person in the desert. Yet, I would say that they could only do so because of God's divine intervention, otherwise they would have had the exact same experience from the same location. So, I guess I'm not seeing the correlation...



I think that Colossians 1:20 is referring to the fact that we, since Jesus died on the cross for our sins, have been restored to a right relationship with God through Jesus Christ. In other words, we used to be estranged from God because of our sin, but through Jesus Christ, all who choose to believe are reconciled with God. I think that is more or less what that passage (and the surrounding passages) is saying.

I prefer agelong to “practically eternal”. I pointed out “practically eternal” in the concordance because it seems like a silly definition. And whether the unholy trinity gets saved is something I think Biblical Universalists differ on. The issue is mostly whether you view them as an actual persons. So if evil is the lack of good (not really a “thing” anymore than a shadow), and they are pure evil – then they would simply be done away with because they aren’t a “thing” to reconcile or to make new (this is where I’d say I’m at). If you just view them as the worse possible people, then you would probably say they do get reconciled. Either way, all evil is done away with.

And I don’t see why it would call into question the eternal state of the new heavens/earth. It has more to go on than the eternal life passages anyway. Like that death is done away with, the old order of things passing away, and God being all in all.

The point to Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego was to point out just what you noticed – God’s divine intervention. I’m pretty sure God is heavily involved in all of afterlife stuff.

As for Colossians, so is the “all things” created in him (verse 16) different than the “all things” reconciled (verse 20), then?

 

[gfm7175]

I prefer agelong to “practically eternal”. I pointed out “practically eternal” in the concordance because it seems like a silly definition. And whether the unholy trinity gets saved is something I think Biblical Universalists differ on. The issue is mostly whether you view them as an actual persons. So if evil is the lack of good (not really a “thing” anymore than a shadow), and they are pure evil – then they would simply be done away with because they aren’t a “thing” to reconcile or to make new (this is where I’d say I’m at). If you just view them as the worse possible people, then you would probably say they do get reconciled. Either way, all evil is done away with.

I think that is the main thing to take away from the discussion... evil is done away with, whether it be destroyed completely or thrown away into a separate area.

And I don’t see why it would call into question the eternal state of the new heavens/earth. It has more to go on than the eternal life passages anyway. Like that death is done away with, the old order of things passing away, and God being all in all.

I was thinking along the lines of if the same word (agelong) was used to describe both things. But I'm in agreeance that it has more to go on than the eternal life passages.

The point to Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego was to point out just what you noticed – God’s divine intervention. I’m pretty sure God is heavily involved in all of afterlife stuff.

Agreed on that point.

As for Colossians, so is the “all things” created in him (verse 16) different than the “all things” reconciled (verse 20), then?

I would say no, as I think you would also say. But I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, all things will be reconciled with God, as in God will accept anyone who believes in him, but there will always be people who reject him, and they will never do "their end of the bargain" to become reconciled with God.

 

[thatguymd]

I think that is the main thing to take away from the discussion... evil is done away with, whether it be destroyed completely or thrown away into a separate area.


I was thinking along the lines of if the same word (agelong) was used to describe both things. But I'm in agreeance that it has more to go on than the eternal life passages.


Agreed on that point.


I would say no, as I think you would also say. But I guess what I'm saying is that, yes, all things will be reconciled with God, as in God will accept anyone who believes in him, but there will always be people who reject him, and they will never do "their end of the bargain" to become reconciled with God.

Evil only being in a “separate area” seems to be a big reason to not believe in eternal conscious torment. You seem to describe the “separate area” as eternal death (second death = separate from God, and it is eternal). So in what way is death swallowed up in victory? Only swallowed up for the individual people that are with God? It doesn't seem so victorious to have a vast majority of people experience eternal death. It also seems like Satan would be better than God at making disciples, no? And how can God be all in all? (Honest questions, don't intend them to sound harsh.)

As for Colossians, I guess we just see it different. I can't see all the universal passages as only potentially universal because I see that he will “reconcile to himself all things” not “reconcile to himself all things that want to (and really mean it) before they die”. I would assume verse 23 would be your reason to qualify it as such. But that is only the condition to be reconciled before everything is finalized. I'm sure you can agree to that (you just differ in what can be final). To me verse 20 can mean exactly what it says and have verse 23 be how you can experience that now. As opposed to verse 20 having an asterisk of “terms and conditions may apply see verse 23 for details”.

The first time I read through the Bible is when I came to believe in annihilationism (aka conditional immortality). I thought about the universal texts like Colossians as sort of being all of everything that is still there. But now learning that the translation for eternal is not definitive, looking at early church history, and looking at different passages in conjunction – I now see universal reconciliation all over. Like in Jude it says that Sodom is an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire, but Ezekiel mentions that Sodom will be restored. Or that Jeremiah 31:40 includes the “whole valley of the dead bodies” in what will be in the rebuilt Jerusalem that “shall be sacred to the Lord”. Well it seems that valley is the Valley of Hinnom, aka Gehenna – one of the words that gets translated as Hell (mostly used by Jesus I believe). And by the way, you'll never guess where the Potter's Field that was purchased with Jesus's blood money is located.... Anyway, I'm starting to ramble, should probably stop.

 

[gfm7175]

So in what way is death swallowed up in victory? Only swallowed up for the individual people that are with God?

Jesus defeated death when he rose from the grave. You and I defeated death when we accepted life in Jesus.

It doesn't seem so victorious to have a vast majority of people experience eternal death.

But given the fact that people have free will, how much more can God really do? He's done absolutely everything under those parameters to create a pathway to him. If people willingly choose to reject that pathway, then they are subject to the consequences of that choice.


I'd like to get into more detail with the rest of your post, but I unfortunately don't have time to be involved with this website at the moment as I'm going through an extremely busy cycle in my life right now.

God's blessings to you Kind Sir,

gfm7175

 

[thatguymd]

Jesus defeated death when he rose from the grave. You and I defeated death when we accepted life in Jesus.


But given the fact that people have free will, how much more can God really do? He's done absolutely everything under those parameters to create a pathway to him. If people willingly choose to reject that pathway, then they are subject to the consequences of that choice.


I'd like to get into more detail with the rest of your post, but I unfortunately don't have time to be involved with this website at the moment as I'm going through an extremely busy cycle in my life right now.

God's blessings to you Kind Sir,

gfm7175

A partial response AND you bring up free will before you go?

But seriously, I pray that you aren’t too stressed with your busyness. Thanks for the discussion.

 

[gfm7175]

A partial response AND you bring up free will before you go?

But seriously, I pray that you aren’t too stressed with your busyness. Thanks for the discussion.

Hahaha thanks man... and my stress already lowered a bit from yesterday. Yesterday was the "getting over the hump" point I think, but prayer has in fact kept me focused on using my God-given abilities to serve him, and things seem to be working themselves out so far... All praise to God.

 

[RAMOSS]

Jesus defeated death when he rose from the grave. You and I defeated death when we accepted life in Jesus.


But given the fact that people have free will, how much more can God really do? He's done absolutely everything under those parameters to create a pathway to him. If people willingly choose to reject that pathway, then they are subject to the consequences of that choice.


I'd like to get into more detail with the rest of your post, but I unfortunately don't have time to be involved with this website at the moment as I'm going through an extremely busy cycle in my life right now.

God's blessings to you Kind Sir,

gfm7175

Well, there are the claims.. I don't accept the claims in the New Testament for being true.