Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

Muddy Creek · Mar 19, 2013

j-mac said:
This has been known for decades. Although there is some debate from pro abortionist doctors, (probably to justify the procedure, or ease their own coscience)...

It is only those whom wish to cloud the facts that would deny that the fetus feels the pain of being torn apart and taken from the womb in the name of convenience of the woman consenting to kill the child....

No. They can't.

3. "This is what an abortion looks like."

Almost always false. Many abortion protest photographs are artist's renderings or the result of image manipulation, and the bulk of the rest are of very late-term fetuses aborted for emergency medical reasons. The most well-known graphic abortion poster is of a 30-week-old fetus, aborted six full weeks into the third trimester. The vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, and Roe v. Wade only protects first and second trimester abortions.
4. "Even first-trimester fetuses can feel pain."

False. Fetal nerve cells can react to trauma, but pain reception requires a neocortex--which is not formed until early in the third trimester.

Top 10 Anti-Abortion Myths - Top 10 Myths About Abortion

minnie616 · Mar 19, 2013

Objective-J said:
This has been known for decades. Although there is some debate from pro abortionist doctors, (probably to justify the procedure, or ease their own coscience)...

It is only those whom wish to cloud the facts that would deny that the fetus feels the pain of being torn apart and taken from the womb in the name of convenience of the woman consenting to kill the child....

LMAO that has to be the worse sight ever, i clicked on home because i like reading as much info as possible an learning and i stopped after so called facts 1 and 2.

those facts are OPINIONS and instantly devalue anything else they could possible say. Oh by the way, i got a date with a Swedish model tonight, she is on the Swedish bikini team, i never met her but it said so on the internet.

Ahhh... The Swedish model you met on the internet..kinda like that commerical where the lady has a date with the French model she met on the internet.
That commericial makes me smile everytime I see it.

AGENT J · Mar 19, 2013

minnie616 said:
Ahhh... The Swedish model you met on the internet..kinda like that commerical where the lady has a date with the French model she met on the internet.
That commericial makes me smile everytime I see it.

exactly!
people are so funny their biased can make them believe anything

fyi you quoted my post weird seems me and his words are running together but what ever we get the point LOL

and yes thats a great commercial, i love the look she gives her friend when they go to walk away after he shrugs and says bonjour LOL gets me every time

Pilot · Mar 19, 2013

minnie616 said:
If you could find a link to the study/ studies that say the brain and nervous system are developed enough by 19 21 weeks gestation for a fetus to feel pain I would like to read. I try to keep up with the latest studies.

I don't remember where I originally got those numbers, but here is a link I found that mentions a couple studies I remember reading about: Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News

One of the first clues that fetuses might feel pain came in the early 1990s, when researchers in England stuck needles into second-trimester fetuses and observed the release of pain-related hormones and nerve-signaling molecules. Before that, doctors thought the fetal nervous system was too undeveloped to feel pain. Even newborns endured surgeries without anesthesia.

he said, studies have shown that the fetal brain and body are coordinated enough to experience pain by between about 18 and 20 weeks. When a fetus of that age gets a blood transfusion, for example, changes in heart rate and blood pressure accompany shifts in circulation and spikes in stress hormones. A morphine-like drug calms all of those responses down.

I'm no expert on this matter, and there very well could be new studies that contradict the information here, but this is what I was referring to.

minnie616 · Mar 19, 2013

Pilot said:
I don't remember where I originally got those numbers, but here is a link I found that mentions a couple studies I remember reading about: Do Fetuses Feel Pain? : Discovery News

I'm no expert on this matter, and there very well could be new studies that contradict the information here, but this is what I was referring to.

Thanks .
i will read the article and look into it a little more.

j-mac · Mar 19, 2013

minnie616 said:
First of all I was trying to say that as methods of birth control improve the numbers of unwanted pregnancies and abortions will go down.

I think you misunderstood what I said and what the study and article were saying. Condoms and birth control pills still have a failure rate about 1 to 5 percent even when used correctly. The BC pills usually cost between 10 to 50 dollars a month.

Long term BC has a failure rate of about .03 percent so there would be many less unwanted pregnancies for women who use long term BC vs Women who count on condoms or pills as a method of BC.
Long term BC costs about 800 dollars up front ( not $800 a month) but lasts about 5 to 10 years so the cost over the long termwould be about the same if not less.

Also I did NOT say anything about free BC ( or the you/ taxes paying for it) I said if insurance companies offered long term BC along with the BC pill with no co pay I thought many more women would opt for the more reliable long term birth control and that the result would be fewer unwanted pregnancies and fewer abortions.

Also I personally do do not need any BC anymore since my 4 children are now grown and I am long past my child bearing years.

Ok, thanks for the reasoned, and rational response...I was clearly not reading it right. And even if those long term abortions go down, and the cost is spread between all the insured, it is clearly not what Obama's administration is after here. But that is for a different thread.

j-mac · Mar 19, 2013

minnie616 said:
Those theories from the 1980's of early fetal pain have been proven wrong by many experts.

Even states that fought for a fetal pain bill were only able fight for a 20 week gestation mark :

https://www.texastribune.org/2013/03/05/gov-perry-announces-support-fetal-pain-bill/

This UK study is in disagreeement that fetal pain starts before 24 weeks gestation;

Read more: New study: Fetus not yet conscious at 24 weeks

From: The Consciousness Meter: Sure You Want That?:

The Consciousness Meter: Sure You Want That? | Wired Science | Wired.com

It is unlikely that waterboarded subjects have any long term effects from their sessions at Gitmo too, does that mean that it is ok?

j-mac · Mar 19, 2013

Objective-J said:
LMAO that has to be the worse sight ever, i clicked on home because i like reading as much info as possible an learning and i stopped after so called facts 1.

those facts are OPINIONS and instantly devalue anything else they could possible say. Oh by the way, i got a date with a Swedish model tonight, she is on the Swedish bikini team, i never met her but it said so on the internet.

so please tell us about facts again

Fact #1: Every abortion kills an innocent human being.

this is 100% false and a blatant lie, credibility SHOT right from the start LMAO

That's your opinion...

j-mac · Mar 19, 2013

Muddy Creek said:
No. They can't.

3. "This is what an abortion looks like."

Almost always false. Many abortion protest photographs are artist's renderings or the result of image manipulation, and the bulk of the rest are of very late-term fetuses aborted for emergency medical reasons. The most well-known graphic abortion poster is of a 30-week-old fetus, aborted six full weeks into the third trimester. The vast majority of abortions are performed during the first trimester, and Roe v. Wade only protects first and second trimester abortions.
4. "Even first-trimester fetuses can feel pain."

False. Fetal nerve cells can react to trauma, but pain reception requires a neocortex--which is not formed until early in the third trimester.

Top 10 Anti-Abortion Myths - Top 10 Myths About Abortion

Do you have any evidence that the ultrasound in the video was manipulated, or doctored in any way?

AGENT J · Mar 19, 2013

j-mac said:
That's your opinion...

no its not an opinion

anybody honest an educated understand the fact that the LIFE of the ZEF is meaningless to the abort procedure

FACTS
abortions are preformed on fetuses already dead
surgical/medicine abortions are preformed after spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) to help ensure the womans health
abortions are preformed and the ZEF has lived, there are even controversies over making laws that protect the living ZEF in the case and when the laws do not
whther the ZEF is alive or dead or whether it lives or dies before, during or after has no impact on the success of the abortion

so "fact 1" is 100% false :lamo

minnie616 · Mar 19, 2013

j-mac said:
Ok, thanks for the reasoned, and rational response...I was clearly not reading it right. And even if those long term abortions go down, and the cost is spread between all the insured, it is clearly not what Obama's administration is after here. But that is for a different thread.

I am hoping the numbers of unwanted pregnancies and abortions go down significantly.

I am happy that BC methods are improving and as prices come down and effectiveness goes up I can picture
Abortions truly becoming rarer and rarer.

AGENT J · Mar 19, 2013

minnie616 said:
I am hoping the numbers of unwanted pregnancies and abortions go down significantly.

I am happy that BC methods are improving and as prices come down and effectiveness goes up I can picture
Abortions truly becoming rarer and rarer.

which is amazingly impressive considering how rare they are

less than .01% of sex leads to abortions but people like to dishonestly act like they are so common and that a very large amount of people are so careless

minnie616 · Mar 19, 2013

Objective-J said:
which is amazingly impressive considering how rare they are

less than .01% of sex leads to abortions but people like to dishonestly act like they are so common and that a very large amount of people are so careless

I agree, it seems most unwanted pregnancies now days happen because of BC failure instead of carelessness.

AGENT J · Mar 19, 2013

minnie616 said:
I agree, it seems most unwanted pregnancies happen because of BC failure instead of carelessness.

not sure about that but the percentages seem to line up better.

I think its a logic assumption to assume that if carelessness was a larger factor there would be more abortions.

Infinite Chaos · Mar 19, 2013

Pilot said:
This is a thread about a law passed in the state of Arkansas. Your interests are irrelevant.

Funnily enough, whether the law is passed in Arkansas or Colombia or China, certain biological facts remain unchanged which is why arguing about the US constitution is pretty pointless. Much like your post.

Pilot · Mar 19, 2013

Infinite Chaos said:
Funnily enough, whether the law is passed in Arkansas or Colombia or China, certain biological facts remain unchanged which is why arguing about the US constitution is pretty pointless. Much like your post.

Did you forget what you said?

Infinite Chaos said:
Yes but the constitutional argument is of no interest outside the USA where abortion still happens. I am not interested in the constitution - just a mother's rights to her own body and choices.

The US constitution is very important when discussing a US law. Abortion around the world or in Colombia or China is not what is being discussed here.

Infinite Chaos · Mar 19, 2013

Pilot said:
Did you forget what you said?

The US constitution is very important when discussing a US law. Abortion around the world or in Colombia or China is not what is being discussed here.

That doesn't change whether the US constitution has bearing on biological fact does it?

Grant · Mar 20, 2013

Objective-J said:
no its not an opinion

anybody honest an educated understand the fact that the LIFE of the ZEF is meaningless to the abort procedure

FACTS
abortions are preformed on fetuses already dead
surgical/medicine abortions are preformed after spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) to help ensure the womans health
abortions are preformed and the ZEF has lived, there are even controversies over making laws that protect the living ZEF in the case and when the laws do not
whther the ZEF is alive or dead or whether it lives or dies before, during or after has no impact on the success of the abortion

so "fact 1" is 100% false :lamo

Abortions are performed on fetuses already dead???

This is what is going on in America, and around the world, today.

The Unmourned - By Mark Steyn - The Corner - National Review Online

minnie616 · Mar 20, 2013

Grant said:
Abortions are performed on fetuses already dead???...
]

Yes , when a fetus dies a natural death in the womb and it is not expelled a doctor performs an abortion to remove the dead fetus and the fetal material.

The medical term abortion means the fetal material is removed from the womb.

When a woman miscarries it is called a spontaneous abortion.

If the fetus dies and is not expelled it is called a missed abortion.

When the doctor removes the dead fetus and fetal material it is called a therapeutic abortion.

When a doctor performs an abortion to save the life or reparable harm to a major bodily function of a woman it is also called a
therapeutic abortion.

All abortions that doctors perform including therapeutic abortions are included in abortion stats.

Grant · Mar 20, 2013

minnie616 said:
Yes , when a fetus dies a natural death in the womb and it is not expelled a doctor performs an abortion to remove the dead fetus and the fetal material.

The medical term abortion means the fetal material is removed from the womb.

When a woman miscarries it is called a spontaneous abortion.

If the fetus dies and is not expelled it is called a missed abortion.

When the doctor removes the dead fetus and fetal material it is called a therapeutic abortion.

When a doctor performs an abortion to save the life or reparable harm to a major bodily function of a woman it is also called a
therapeutic abortion.

All abortions that doctors perform including therapeutic abortions are included in abortion stats.

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/343460/unmourned-mark-steyn

minnie616 · Mar 20, 2013

Grant said:
The Unmourned - By Mark Steyn - The Corner - National Review Online

What does an article about illegal abortions have to with legal theraputic abortions of a fetus that died in the womb naturally?

minnie616 · Mar 20, 2013

Medical terms for the types of abortions:

abortion /abor·tion/ (ah-bor´shun)
1. expulsion from the uterus of the products of conception before the fetus is viable.
2. premature stoppage of a natural or a pathological process.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

artificial abortion induced a.
complete abortion one in which all the products of conception are expelled from the uterus and identified.
habitual abortion spontaneous abortion occurring in three or more successive pregnancies, at about the same level of development.

incomplete abortion that with retention of parts of the products of conception.

induced abortion that brought on intentionally by medication or instrumentation.

inevitable abortion a condition in which vaginal bleeding has been profuse and the cervix has become dilated, and abortion will invariably occur.

infected abortion that associated with infection of the genital tract.

missed abortion retention in the uterus of an abortus that has been dead for at least eight weeks.
septic abortion that associated with serious infection of the uterus leading to generalized infection.

spontaneous abortion that occurring naturally.

therapeutic abortion that induced for medical considerations.

threatened abortion a condition in which vaginal bleeding is less than in inevitable abortion and the cervix is not dilated, and abortion may or may not occur.

missed abortion - definition of missed abortion in the Medical dictionary - by the Free Online Medical Dictionary, Thesaurus and Encyclopedia.

AGENT J · Mar 21, 2013

Grant said:
Abortions are performed on fetuses already dead???

This is what is going on in America, and around the world, today.

The Unmourned - By Mark Steyn - The Corner - National Review Online

yes, please catch up and educate yourself on what an abortion actually is LMAO

also abortion are preformed and sometimes the ZEF lives, guess what, the abortion was 100% successful

i know unless a person actually CARES to find out actual facts and information its hard sometimes because of all the les spread about this topic but the LIFE of the ZEF has ZERO impact on the procedure.

you're welcome, let me know if theres any other fallacies you need cleared up for you

AGENT J · Mar 21, 2013

minnie616 said:
What does an article about illegal abortions have to with legal theraputic abortions of a fetus that died in the womb naturally?

nothing, it has ZERO to do with "abortion"

Grant · Mar 21, 2013

AGENT J said:
yes, please catch up and educate yourself on what an abortion actually is LMAO

also abortion are preformed and sometimes the ZEF lives, guess what, the abortion was 100% successful

i know unless a person actually CARES to find out actual facts and information its hard sometimes because of all the les spread about this topic but the LIFE of the ZEF has ZERO impact on the procedure.

you're welcome, let me know if theres any other fallacies you need cleared up for you

Are you hoping the name change gives you some credibility?

You're still a loser.

Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

Muddy Creek

minnie616

AGENT J

"If you ain't first, you're last"

Pilot

minnie616

j-mac

j-mac

j-mac

j-mac

AGENT J

"If you ain't first, you're last"

minnie616

AGENT J

"If you ain't first, you're last"

minnie616

AGENT J

"If you ain't first, you're last"

Infinite Chaos

Pilot

Infinite Chaos

Grant

minnie616

Grant

minnie616

minnie616

AGENT J

"If you ain't first, you're last"

AGENT J

"If you ain't first, you're last"

Grant

Arkansas to ban abortion at 12 weeks, earliest in nation [W:1036:1154]

"If you ain't first, you're last"

"If you ain't first, you're last"

"If you ain't first, you're last"

"If you ain't first, you're last"

"If you ain't first, you're last"

"If you ain't first, you're last"

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency