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Arizona's 'abortion reversal' law put on hold

7 out of 100 is not a lot, IMO.

The govt. is agreeing to put the law on hold. I doubt it would do that if it was so sure of it......

Medical decisions should be made by the medical profession, NOT the govt.

I find it fascinating that a large number of conservatives and even some libertarians believe that the government can do almost nothing right and should never be trusted...

...until it comes to controlling women's bodies! Then all of a sudden, they seem to want the most invasive government that money can buy!
 

And yet it is far away from a full on clinical trial with results significant enough for ACOG to recommend.
 
There is a difference between mandating that doctors tell patients that their abortion can be reversed based on questionable science and permitting a doctor to answer questions that the patient may ask.

The questions are fine, but it would be negligent to allow that to suffice. That is why you have to sign that you have been informed of possible consequences of medical procedures. Otherwise the doctor is even more liable to be sued.
 

I don't really understand, where your problem is.
 
You may dispense with the faux outrage, nota. You can't just put a ridiculous or distorted position out there and not expected to have it critiqued.

Nota never puts out "ridiculous or distorted positions."

She did, however, note your lack of courtesy in spamming that same garbage in the same rude-ass way over and over again in thread after thread.


You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

Nota is a consistent supporter of the human right to life.

George Carlin's bit on this was flat-out retarded, a cookie cutter typical pro-abort socialist conflating the two issues and moving the goalposts.

You deserve the label because it is the most nearly accurate to your positions. You deliberately and intentionally choose to oppose a woman's right to govern her pregnancy as she sees fit.

What we anti-abortion folks oppose is the killing of a human being in aggression.

Oh and by the way. There is something fascinatingly and disturbingly ironic about a woman's choosing to be anti-choice. Seems to me that that's just cattiness, pure and simple.

More disgusting and blatant sexism from you.

Holy ****, nota, you didn't even make it out of this post without doing the very thing that you accused me of. What the hell is a "secularist" anyway?

A good portion of the folks on this site who argue from the anti-abortion perspective do so without resorting to religion or religious arguments.

The same cannot be said of the radical pro-aborts on this site who have pushed their bizarre fringe notions about reincarnation and arguing that killing is "religious freedom" and one of them who ranted on about Satan creating unwanted pregnancies.




Idiotic. Banning the action of killing another human being in aggression is not "controlling anyone's body."
 
I don't really understand, where your problem is.

You are kidding me, right?

A law making women be informed about an OB/GYN procedure that is not accepted by the ACOG?

We are talking a law advocating a practice that is not accepted by a group of people who are concerned with the well being of OB/GYN patients.
 

I do not see the problem. What is the harm? Personally I do not think the government should be involved in a lot of things. But I do not see any reason to get excited about this one in particular.
 
I do not see the problem. What is the harm? Personally I do not think the government should be involved in a lot of things. But I do not see any reason to get excited about this one in particular.

What is the harm about instituting a law that requires ob/gyns to give information about a procedure that their own professional organization does not advocate?

Say it out loud -maybe you will get it.

What is the harm? Serial injections of high dose progesterone can have cardiovascular and endocrine side effects.

They want to REQUIRE the ob/gyn to inform a woman about a treatment that they know has not been properly tested and a safety profile has not been established.
 
I do not see the problem. What is the harm? Personally I do not think the government should be involved in a lot of things. But I do not see any reason to get excited about this one in particular.

My daughter is high risk for miscarriage . Her reproductive GYN prescribed the progesterone gel inserted by the cervix for her.
The gel was not covered by insurance and cost $320 for a 5 day supply ( 5 pens ) she was on it for 30 days.
She started using it as soon as she found she was pregnant . ( so early her fist ultrasound just showed a yoke sac and beginning of the placenta.). Over $1500

So it is an expensive procedure for an experimental " reversal" based on one study where the people performing the test study may or may not have stock in manufacture.
 
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Totally immoral nonsense that this state wants to force it's doctors to do.
 
An interesting side note for the pro lifers who think Plan B causes abortions.
I have been posting here Plan B only has progesterone in it.
That it delays ovulation but if the woman is already pregnant it does not prohibit implantation and will not harm the pregnancy.
If the woman is already pregnant chances are it "might" aid in keeping the pregnancy.


http://www.mckinley.illinois.edu/handouts/plan_b_contraception.html
 
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Some people think it is worth it. Of course, you have to know about it to know.
 

As I said, I am not much into allowing government to interfere. But I see no real effort here and being sued later would make it very intelligent for the doctor to be forthcoming with the information in the first place. But I do not see your specific gripe. But that's okay.
 
Reversing Abortion Pill: Can It Be Done? | Medpage Today

If there is a reasonable possibility that the abortificient medication can be offset by additional progesterone then it is absolutely ethical that the patient be so advised.

But this "study" is including women they lost contact with, and therefore don't know if the pregnancy continued or not. What percentage of them is unknown.

It has always been known that there will be some cases where a pregnancy survives the first medication. However, many if not most cases will result in either full miscarriage, incomplete miscarriage (at which point the woman's life becomes at risk due to sepsis), or a stillbirth with or without major deformities. That is why women are advised that they must complete the abortion once they've begun it.

This "study" does nothing to change that, as it does not meaningfully compare this "treatment" against not having any treatment. They aren't even following up with some of the women they're studying. Gee, wonder why. As your own link says, 30 to 50% of pregnancies will continue after the first medication even without any treatment. So there is no evidence whatsoever that this "treatment" does anything at all.

Advising women that a medical abortion can be "reversed" with an unproven pseudoscientific treatment that no legitimate hospital even provides puts their lives at risk.

When progesterone treatment to reverse an abortion-in-progress is properly studied according to medical and FDA protocol and approved for human use, then you can advise women that an abortion-in-progress can be reversed. Please, by all means. I am always in favor of there being as many choices as humanly possible for all possible scenarios a woman might encounter. Women who abort due to being in coercive situations come immediately to mind, in this case. But experimenting on vulnerable women is not the solution. Actual proven medicine is.

Unless or until this "treatment" meets the criteria of actual medicine, anyone who tells a woman she can have a reversal, or worse yet actually tries to perform one, should have their license revoked and be charged with endangerment and criminal human experimentation.
 

"..or worse yet actually tries to perform one.."?

How do you propose this study be done? Are you going to as women who want their baby to take an abortifacient just to see if it can be reversed? The doctor that did this study obviously took the time to explain to her patients that this was an option that might be successful and the patients chose to participate. That tells me two things; first, it tells me that not every woman who initially seeks an abortion chooses to go through with it and second, it tells me that at least some women who are informed that there may be an option to reverse the effects of the abortifacient will choose to do so.

As I've said before, if this issue is really about choice then why take information off the table that might convince a woman to choose life for her baby?
 

I don't know. I'm not a scientist. However, given that there is a strong risk of death by sepsis, I am fairly sure that just letting them fall out of contact and not receive any further medical care is a damn bad idea. I dunno, just a hunch.

If the doctor told them it "might be successful," he lied. There are no proper studies on this at all, and even his own "study" gives no evidence of any efficacy at all, keeping in mind that some pregnancies continue without any treatment and he doesn't even know the outcomes for some of his patients.

Of course there are some women who would want this. That is why it should be properly studied and when it meets the criteria for a safe medical procedure, they can be advised that it is an option. But what this quack is doing is dangerous human experimentation.
 
The questions are fine, but it would be negligent to allow that to suffice. That is why you have to sign that you have been informed of possible consequences of medical procedures. Otherwise the doctor is even more liable to be sued.

And how is "possible reversal based on questionable science" a "possible consequence of [the abortion] medical procedure?"
 
Some people think it is worth it. Of course, you have to know about it to know.

In my daughters case the progeterone was a gel that inserted by the cervix.
In the case of trying to reverses the side effects of the abortion pill the women are given 21 injections of high dose progesterone injections.

I don't know if studies have been done regarding side effects of that many high dose injections given over such as short period.

It is still experimental and may not even be FDA approved.
 
I thought that doctors were obliged to explain the details of and medical procedure in detail. They can be sued otherwise.

There is no real evidence that 'abortion reversal' actually is possible. One very pro-life doctor claims he has done it, but there is no peer reviewed evidence, or even anything in a journal that shows it is feasible or possible.

It can not be shown to be true, and doctors shouldn't lie.
 
Reversing Abortion Pill: Can It Be Done? | Medpage Today



If there is a reasonable possibility that the abortificient medication can be offset by additional progesterone then it is absolutely ethical that the patient be so advised.


Because it's not a reasonable claim

You didn't go further in your own source, which quotes
 

No, they shouldn't lie. So maybe they should just say it as far as they know.
 
Because it's not a reasonable claim

You didn't go further in your own source, which quotes

First off, the ACOG report relies on a 2012 case study of 6 women, not the more than 200 that Delgado has worked with.

Second, nobody at ACOG says this program doesn't work. What they say is that they don't have the evidence to make that determination.

I keep on asking this but it keeps on getting ignored, why is it so important to the "pro choice" crowd to hide this information from women? If we assume that most women are capable of making a rational decision then they should be free to accept or ignore this information as they see fit. That would be "making a choice", right?
 


He makes the claim.. yet.... his claims in his 'study' are not duplicated else where.
 
He makes the claim.. yet.... his claims in his 'study' are not duplicated else where.

As I said earlier, it's not a really easy study to perform. You can't exactly go to women who want to keep their baby and ask them to take RU 486 just to see if it can be reversed so the only real way to get data is to present the choice and work with those who might change their minds.
 


That is an excuse. Why must all these outlandish claims people come up with also come along with an excuse why it's not independently verified?
 
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