Actually, I'm not. Surprised, that is. People on the left are less likely to have respect for business. I'm not sure if it's conscious or subconscious, but I suspect it's something of a "they'll screw me if I don't screw them first" mindset.
I'm sure.
You're definitely more likely to find distrust of business on the left, but the idea that "the left" finds business itself or businessmen as a whole to be immoral is patently untrue.
I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.
But you believe that business is never immoral and always cares about more than profits. Either you are incredibly naïve or a fool.
I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.
As a businessman I can't help but take it somewhat personally. I pay my workers well with great benefits and I don't much care for how liberals treat me.
Yes they are options for abiding by the terms of the contract. The contract spells out such options.
Agreed, words mean something.
People mean something too though.
A lot of people find themselves in circumstances they didn't expect. When they were 30yo professionals bringing in a household income of 120k a year, that 25 year mortgage probably sounded like something they could easily manage.
When twenty years later the business Mr was in doesn't exist anymore thanks to outsourcing or technology, and Mrs was stricken by a strange disorder that has left her unable to work, things look a lot different.
A little humanity towards one's fellow man may not be a fundamental business principle... but maybe it should be.
They do matter I'm aggregate but I am not responsible for the actions of others. Let's say we share progressive as our insurance, the sheer amount of money I have to influence for you to see your premiums move a penny is more than I will ever own or ever care to own.
I as a person present no harm to you as a person regarding this interaction
It was the banks that set the value of the mortgage with their own appraisals and when they closed on the mortgage they agreed to the use of that home for collateral for the value they appraised. This is how mortgages have always been written. That is the reason for "qualifying" buyers and doing their own appraisals, there is a risk if someone defaults. It is not against any law to default on collateralized loan and returning the collateral satisfies the debt. The idea that banks are somehow being "victimized" because of their failure to qualify mortgages and writing "balloon" interest loans in the midst of a housing bubble is preposterous and wrong. The immorality lies totally with the bankers and the billions in fines were just a slap on the wrist. They'd try the whole damn thing again if they could
Me not feeling a moral obligation for a business transaction does not mean I will not honor the terms of a legally enforced contract, so the accusation that I wouldn't repay it and that I don't care doesn't work here. There are obvious penalties to not honoring a debt contract (if the contract was well written) and if I want to keep the hour or car or whatever, I will continue to pay. If I want to keep my credit score good I will continue to pay. Stuff like that. Those things benefit me so I will behave accordingly and that lowers rates for everyone.So, bottom line, as long as everyone else is moral, you can be as immoral as you want because the impact of your immorality will be minimal. Problem is, there are an abundance of immoral people out there following your code of conduct and that makes everyone's credit card rate higher, personal loan rate higher, mortgage rate higher, insurance rates higher, etc. But hey, you apparently live in a vacuum so what do you care.
[emphasis added by bubba to make the point immediately below]Because it is keeping your word. Do you think it is moral to say you will pay someone back and never do so?
Obviously situations can make you break your word, but if you never intended to pay the loan back then you deceived the lender into believing you would.
[emphasis added by bubba]well, i wouldn't automatically consider a person immoral for defaulting on a loan....but those whom fraudulently take the loan out, or purposefully default even though they have the ability to pay... yeah.. i'd say those were bad people with bad characters... immoral.
I am actually surprised that it's the more left leaning among us who are arguing their is no moral component in this type of business.
which is kinda making me wonder what other types of business are bereft of a moral component... or it is simply "business" as a whole that is amoral.
meh... maybe there's a limit... maybe there's not...... but this has all been an interesting conversation.
[emphasis added by bubba]Liberals have long argued that business men are immoral and at the same time that business is amoral. The human part of the equation somehow affects business and at the same time doesn't affect business. Liberals are not well known for coherent logic and this thread is a good example of it.
I've been posting on boards like this since '98, and throughout all that time liberals online have been very clear on their belief that businessmen are immoral and only care about profits. The whole they just want to pay you as little as possible and don't care if you strave to death, and hell, if child labor wasn't illegal they would hire them too because they like cheap labor.
As a businessman I can't help but take it somewhat personally. I pay my workers well with great benefits and I don't much care for how liberals treat me.
You sign a promise to repay (usually with interest). You gave your word*. You then feel no obligation to uphold your word, AND you feel no guilt whatsoever about it.
I think we've stumbled upon what's wrong with society.
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*- Unforeseen dire circumstances not included.
If you borrow money, do you feel there is a moral obligation to repay the money you borrowed?
Of course, there is that moral obligation. And trust is a wonderful thing.
But it is better to have good laws, strong contracts, close monitoring and swift, robust and harsh enforcement.
And I maintain that morality does not require the paying back of loans made by banks or other financial institutions.
When I take a loan, I create an obligation to adhere to the terms of the contract - which I do. However, the terms do not require that I pay back the loan. At least, none of the loans I've ever taken require that. They have all contained provisions that allow me to not pay back the loan and there's nothing immoral about taking a course of action that the contract has defined
Me not feeling a moral obligation for a business transaction does not mean I will not honor the terms of a legally enforced contract, so the accusation that I wouldn't repay it and that I don't care doesn't work here. There are obvious penalties to not honoring a debt contract (if the contract was well written) and if I want to keep the hour or car or whatever, I will continue to pay. If I want to keep my credit score good I will continue to pay. Stuff like that. Those things benefit me so I will behave accordingly and that lowers rates for everyone.
So why the outrage?
I am sorry that feeling no loyalty to entities that do thing like lay people off and ruin lives so some CEO can get a fifth home bothers so many people but maybe if these companies behaved ethically I wouldn't have checked out. I am simply doing what makes sense and focusing my morality on things in life that aren't inherently evil. But if you want to feel morally obligated to such a monster, go ahead. The way businesses behave gives me no reason to care. If a business puts people ahead of money I will support them as I have means to, like I do with charities. Until then I do my job well enough to get my raises and fake that I care well enough so I can continue to eat and have shelter because this is the world people want. A world that focuses more on money than people. I do not feel obligated to such greed. I reserve my energy for people.
[emphasis added by bubba to make the point immediately below]
what you have described is a prima facie instance of fraud
hopefully, there is no one on these boards who believes fraud is a moral act
The govt pays back all of the money it borrows. It does not default on its' debt (though the immoral republicans are doing everything they can to change that)
Then it turns around and borrows again.
It's not a matter of feeling loyalty to entities - that's utter nonsense. It's a matter of being a decent, honest, trustworthy person who honours his word. Nobody forces you to buy something on credit so if you feel banks and other lenders are dishonest, greedy and unethical then don't do business with them. Don't use credit period. Your sanctimonious excuse that the lenders are crooks is just a convenient way for you to justify being a dishonest drain on society. If you believed a word you said and had the slightest bit of honour and moral decency, then you wouldn't engage in transactions with people and businesses you disrespect.
And since you claim to be hard working and deserving of raises and pay, I guess you'd be fine with your employer not paying you for the work you provide any given week or month. Maybe your employer says, gee, it's in my best interest not to pay you today so too bad, so sad, tacomancer gets diddly for his labour this week.
Your self-centered, selfish, attitude towards honesty, integrity and morality is disgraceful and a prime example of why much of society is going to hell.
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