Onion Eater
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What do you mean by "loaded poll?"
These men took an action and clearly stated in writing why they were taking that action. Ahmed simply asked whether you think that they were right or wrong. All actions are either right or wrong. No?
Every human being must weigh the moral consequences and implication of their actions whether a soldier, public servant, military commander, politician or private citizen. In a fundamental way, it is the place of a solider to consider what wars to fight. If given an order completely immoral, completely contrary to humanity and completely without purpose he is morally obligated to disobey it.I say they are wrong. Its not a soldiers job to pick which wars he wants to fight in. I definitely do not think too highly of the orthodox jews and other ******s who use their religion or ethnicity to weasel out of military service, they are basically moochers mooching off of everyone else's military service to defend them in what is basically terrorist target capital of the world.
Every human being must weigh the moral consequences and implication of their actions whether a soldier, public servant, military commander, politician or private citizen. In a fundamental way, it is the place of a solider to consider what wars to fight. If given an order completely immoral, completely contrary to humanity and completely without purpose he is morally obligated to disobey it.
Every human being must weigh the moral consequences and implication of their actions whether a soldier, public servant, military commander, politician or private citizen. In a fundamental way, it is the place of a solider to consider what wars to fight. If given an order completely immoral, completely contrary to humanity and completely without purpose he is morally obligated to disobey it.
There are cases where the general consensus is that a soldier’s refusal to obey orders is the only ethical course of action. I don’t think that many would use the argument that it is not a soldier’s place to question orders when presented with a case study such a guard in Auschwitz ordered to drop the gas canisters into a shower full of children. (I am not calling the Israelis Nazis, merely asserting that there are in fact instances when one has a moral obligation to disobey orders… I wish I didn’t have to say that explicitly, but I know the charge would be raised…) Was a soldier who refused to take part in the Nazi wars of aggression morally wrong? I think not. Did he fail his duties as a solider? By the Nazi state’s standards to be sure. But was doing so required to maintain his duties as a human being? I think so. And doesn’t a soldier’s moral duty as a human being come before his duties to the government? I think most people would say so. I find it interesting that the letter's author describes their refusal as their responsibility as soldiers of Israel.
Ethically the question hinges upon whether or not Israel is committing moral atrocities. Are these strikes in fact, as the soldier asserts, depriving millions of Palestinians of their basic human rights? Are they missions of “oppression?” I think people’s partisan opinions are fairly entrenched on these questions. And so people’s opinion as to whether the refusenicks are right or wrong will divide based on their opinion of the nature of the Israeli operations in question rather than the supposed place of a soldier.
Whether they are right or wrong, I don't think that the "refuseniks" are cowards. As you yourself point out, if they are simply afraid of military service they could renounce their citizenship. The fact that they don't, and risk imprisonment and ostricism demonstrates that this is a commitment based on what they percieve to be moral grounds.Those soldiers are trying to use what ever pathetic ***** punk ass excuse they can to weasel out of military service. If they didn't want to serve they should have renounced their citizenship and left Israel for another country.
Whether they are right or wrong, I don't think that the "refuseniks" are cowards. As you yourself point out, if they are simply afraid of military service they could renounce their citizenship. The fact that they don't, and risk imprisonment and ostricism demonstrates that this is a commitment based on what they percieve to be moral grounds.
Those soldiers are trying to use what ever pathetic ***** punk ass excuse they can to weasel out of military service.
They fact they didn't renounce their citizenship and leave military service just proves that they do not want to leave Israel. They just want to be moochers like all the other cowards like the orthodox jews and others who hide behind their religion or ethnicity to weasel out of military service.
"We shall no longer deny our responsibility as soldiers of the Israeli DEFENSE force."
Cowardice cannot be the issue for the pilots because Hamas does not have anti-aircraft guns or missiles. Flying bombing missions over Gaza is no more dangerous than flying a shuttle out of LAX.
Seeing how it is the internet people can say what ever they want. So someone can claim to be a pilot or a general. People turn on the military for all sorts of reason,some do it for political reasons,some do it to be famous and some do it out of hatred.Cowardice cannot be the issue for the pilots because Hamas does not have anti-aircraft guns or missiles. Flying bombing missions over Gaza is no more dangerous than flying a shuttle out of LAX.
Also, these are high-ranking officers who have served for decades. These aren't privates who deserted the first time they came under fire. The pilots are the elite of the IDF, as are the commandos, who wrote, "We shall no longer corrupt our moral character in missions of oppression." Those aren't the words of cowards - they're throwing away decades-long careers to make a moral stand.
Using phrases like "pathetic ***** punk ass" is really not appropriate when discussing a Brigadier General like Yiftah Spector who has served his country for his entire life, including bombing a nuclear reactor in Iraq - a country with a LOT of anti-aircraft guns.
The signatories of the pilots' letter are:
Brigadier General Yiftah Spector, Colonel Yigal Shohat,
Colonel Ran, Lieutenant Colonel Yoel Piterberg, Lieutenant Colonel
David Yisraeli,Lieutenant Colonel Adam Netzer, Lieutenant Colonel
Avner Ra'anan, Lieutenant Colonel Gideon Shaham, Major Haggai Tamir,
Major Amir Massad, Major Gideon Dror, Major David Marcus, Major
Professor Motti Peri, Major Yotam, Major Zeev Reshef, Major Reuven,
Captain Assaf, Captain Tomer, Captain Ron, Captain Yonatan, Captain
Allon, Captain Amnon
Of the highest ranking one, Yiftah Spector, we read:
"The most outstanding name among those who signed is that
of Yiftah Spector, a Brigadier General in the reserves. Spector is a
mythological pilot in the Air Force, who commanded squadrons and
bases, participated in the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Iraq,
and was a candidate for corps commander. Young pilots are raised on
battle stories about Spector and on books that he himself wrote. He
still flies in the Air Force as a trainer in the reserves for the
flight school."
Also, we read:
"According to those who signed the letter, 'gray refusal' is already
widespread in the Air Force, and includes even pilots in the standing
army. There are dozens of pilots who refuse to participate in
assassinations, but get out of them quietly in private arrangements
with the commander of the squadron."
Source: Israeli Brigadier General Yiftah Spector and A Few Good Men : LA IMC
No. Actually the fact they didn't renounce their citizenship and leave military service just proves that they want to change Israel. This is also why the commandos capitalized the word "defense" in Israeli Defense Force.
Seeing how it is the internet people can say what ever they want. So someone can claim to be a pilot or a general.
The signatories of the pilots' letter are:
Brigadier General Yiftah Spector, Colonel Yigal Shohat,
Colonel Ran, Lieutenant Colonel Yoel Piterberg, Lieutenant Colonel
David Yisraeli,Lieutenant Colonel Adam Netzer, Lieutenant Colonel
Avner Ra'anan, Lieutenant Colonel Gideon Shaham, Major Haggai Tamir,
Major Amir Massad, Major Gideon Dror, Major David Marcus, Major
Professor Motti Peri, Major Yotam, Major Zeev Reshef, Major Reuven,
Captain Assaf, Captain Tomer, Captain Ron, Captain Yonatan, Captain
Allon, Captain Amnon
Of the highest ranking one, Yiftah Spector, we read:
"The most outstanding name among those who signed is that
of Yiftah Spector, a Brigadier General in the reserves. Spector is a
mythological pilot in the Air Force, who commanded squadrons and
bases, participated in the bombing of the nuclear reactor in Iraq,
and was a candidate for corps commander. Young pilots are raised on
battle stories about Spector and on books that he himself wrote. He
still flies in the Air Force as a trainer in the reserves for the
flight school."
If given an ILLEGAL order, it his duty to not obey it.Every human being must weigh the moral consequences and implication of their actions whether a soldier, public servant, military commander, politician or private citizen. In a fundamental way, it is the place of a solider to consider what wars to fight. If given an order completely immoral, completely contrary to humanity and completely without purpose he is morally obligated to disobey it.
If given an ILLEGAL order, it his duty to not obey it.
As a soldier, it isn't his place to decide on the other issues you list.
As a soldier's duties as defined by the state no. As a human being, yes. A solider is a human being with all of the moral obligations thereof.If given an ILLEGAL order, it his duty to not obey it.
As a soldier, it isn't his place to decide on the other issues you list.
As a soldier's duties as defined by the state no. As a human being, yes. A solider is a human being with all of the moral obligations thereof.
The commando's are SOL. As a ground element they are a surgical force which has the flexibility to engage or not engage based on what they see directly. Defense of an area may also mean pro-active combat. If you see someone making weapon emplacements, marking your patrol schedules, and pacing off distances for a mortar pit then removing those still falls well within the dialogue of "defense".
And the state is the highest authority and the true author of morality? Or could the state be wrong on a given issue?And in the states eyes it is duty to carry out the orders weather he likes it or not.
And the state is the highest authority and the true author of morality? Or could the state be wrong on a given issue?
We [pilots], for whom the Israel Defense Forces and the Air Force are an inalienable part of ourselves, refuse to continue to harm innocent civilians. These actions are illegal and immoral, and are a direct result of the ongoing occupation which is corrupting all of Israeli society. Perpetuation of the occupation is fatally harming the security of the state of Israel and its moral strength.
thank you for this gem of brutal reality.
Makes me sick.
Wrong. If given an illegal order then a soldier must obey it and THEN make a report on it. That is the legal way of doing it. It is his duty to obey the orders because of the oath that he took.
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