Are liberals allies to socialism?

Nomad4Ever · Feb 28, 2023

"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"

A saying thrown around by some leftists. Generally used either to deride liberals for not taking fascism seriously enough thereby allowing them to take power, or to imply that liberals still hold some fascistic beliefs (maybe being pro cop, or pro US international corporate imperialism).

Socialists and liberals have, historically, had a fairly confrontational relationship. The example most frequently used is Rosa Luxembourg and the socialists who were rounded up, arrested, or killed after allying with the social democrats to overthrow the German Empire.

But just because there are some bad historical examples, does that mean liberals are inherently enemies to socialism? I don't think so. Liberalism as a philosophy was built on the ideas of the enlightenment. Democracy, equality under the law, social justice, etc. Since virtually all socialist theory is built on top of the same enlightenment values, socialists and liberals almost always at least share the same value system. That is to say our ethical frameworks for how we view the world are similar. For example, if I am arguing for socialism with a conservative, often there is almost no way I can reach them. The argument that "we can create a more equal and fair society" fails at ground 0 against someone who isn't interested in making society equal. Whereas arguments about socialism with liberals usually boils down to liberal not believing socialism can actually create a more equal society, not that the pursuit of such a society is inherently bad.

For liberals, and especially progressive social democrats, the barrier between being socialist is generally just that they believe socialism is unfeasible, not that its goals are bad. You'll hear arguments like, "the ideals are nice but it would never work" or "well regulated capitalism with a welfare state is the best system".

So, can liberals be potential allies to building socialism? I think so. They are the largest political block and their ethical values are more aligned with socialist ones than other political groups. I think leftists should spend more time answering questions liberals have about how socialism would work and doing outreach instead of assuming they are a lost cause (the most common belief in my experience). If you want to have enough people in your political movement you need to convince wine moms and soccer dads.

btthegreat · Feb 28, 2023

Nomad4Ever said:
"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"

A saying thrown around by some leftists. Generally used either to deride liberals for not taking fascism seriously enough thereby allowing them to take power, or to imply that liberals still hold some fascistic beliefs (maybe being pro cop, or pro US international corporate imperialism).

Socialists and liberals have, historically, had a fairly confrontational relationship. The example most frequently used is Rosa Luxembourg and the socialists who were rounded up, arrested, or killed after allying with the social democrats to overthrow the German Empire.

But just because there are some bad historical examples, does that mean liberals are inherently enemies to socialism? I don't think so. Liberalism as a philosophy was built on the ideas of the enlightenment. Democracy, equality under the law, social justice, etc. Since virtually all socialist theory is built on top of the same enlightenment values, socialists and liberals almost always at least share the same value system. That is to say our ethical frameworks for how we view the world are similar. For example, if I am arguing for socialism with a conservative, often there is almost no way I can reach them. The argument that "we can create a more equal and fair society" fails at ground 0 against someone who isn't interested in making society equal. Whereas arguments about socialism with liberals usually boils down to liberal not believing socialism can actually create a more equal society, not that the pursuit of such a society is inherently bad.

For liberals, and especially progressive social democrats, the barrier between being socialist is generally just that they believe socialism is unfeasible, not that its goals are bad. You'll hear arguments like, "the ideals are nice but it would never work" or "well regulated capitalism with a welfare state is the best system".

So, can liberals be potential allies to building socialism? I think so. They are the largest political block and their ethical values are more aligned with socialist ones than other political groups. I think leftists should spend more time answering questions liberals have about how socialism would work and doing outreach instead of assuming they are a lost cause (the most common belief in my experience). If you want to have enough people in your political movement you need to convince wine moms and soccer dads.

there are just too many definitions problems here. You define what a 'socialist' for your purpose, and I can tell you more. I am a modern American Liberal so I don't need any help there. I am your target audience.

Dans La Lune · Feb 28, 2023

Marx was only ever concerned about people getting the value of their work, rather than having that value exploited and extracted. It's bizarre how that is seen as extreme and un-American even by some left-leaning Democrats.

I see socialism as a spectrum rather than an absolute, so yes there can be alliances when goals converge on policy. I don't think anything in its pure form healthy or even realistic -- including socialism. A pure form of socialism would be only slightly less monstrous than pure capitalism. A reasonable goal is a Social Democracy, as you'd experience in Nordic countries, aka the happiest places on Earth.

It also depends on the definition you use. Liberal is often conflated with conservative-leaning Democrat or even moderate Republican, aka a neoliberal (or economic liberal). There is no universal definition in modern usage. In the past I think you could conflate liberal and progressive, but that's becoming less common.

Generally speaking, it's not that socialist and moderate liberals cannot align, it's that when the rubber meets the road, moderate liberals tend to align with power, hierarchy and the status quo (aka conservative principles). So any alliance should be met with eyes wide open.

Fearandloathing · Feb 28, 2023

Nomad4Ever said:
"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"

A saying thrown around by some leftists. Generally used either to deride liberals for not taking fascism seriously enough thereby allowing them to take power, or to imply that liberals still hold some fascistic beliefs (maybe being pro cop, or pro US international corporate imperialism).

Socialists and liberals have, historically, had a fairly confrontational relationship. The example most frequently used is Rosa Luxembourg and the socialists who were rounded up, arrested, or killed after allying with the social democrats to overthrow the German Empire.

But just because there are some bad historical examples, does that mean liberals are inherently enemies to socialism? I don't think so. Liberalism as a philosophy was built on the ideas of the enlightenment. Democracy, equality under the law, social justice, etc. Since virtually all socialist theory is built on top of the same enlightenment values, socialists and liberals almost always at least share the same value system. That is to say our ethical frameworks for how we view the world are similar. For example, if I am arguing for socialism with a conservative, often there is almost no way I can reach them. The argument that "we can create a more equal and fair society" fails at ground 0 against someone who isn't interested in making society equal. Whereas arguments about socialism with liberals usually boils down to liberal not believing socialism can actually create a more equal society, not that the pursuit of such a society is inherently bad.

For liberals, and especially progressive social democrats, the barrier between being socialist is generally just that they believe socialism is unfeasible, not that its goals are bad. You'll hear arguments like, "the ideals are nice but it would never work" or "well regulated capitalism with a welfare state is the best system".

So, can liberals be potential allies to building socialism? I think so. They are the largest political block and their ethical values are more aligned with socialist ones than other political groups. I think leftists should spend more time answering questions liberals have about how socialism would work and doing outreach instead of assuming they are a lost cause (the most common belief in my experience). If you want to have enough people in your political movement you need to convince wine moms and soccer dads.

I strongly suggest you read a book on political science. Anything. Coles notes.

Slartibartfast · Feb 28, 2023

Which of the 344394589548095480954 definitions of socialism and 43483289034809342342809 definitions of liberal are we using for this question?

Nomad4Ever · Feb 28, 2023

btthegreat said:
there are just too many definitions problems here. You define what a 'socialist' for your purpose, and I can tell you more. I am a modern American Liberal so I don't need any help there. I am your target audience.

In the broadest sense, any system where the majority of capital (factories, firms, anything that is used to produce value) is controlled democratically or collectively.

I am personally a libertarian market socialist and believe most firms should be operated as worker cooperatives but that non-essential goods should still be distributed through a market system.

Nomad4Ever · Feb 28, 2023

tacomancer said:
Which of the 344394589548095480954 definitions of socialism and 43483289034809342342809 definitions of liberal are we using for this question?

I defined liberal in my OP in the literal terms; i.e. someone who believes in the values of liberalism derived from the enlightenment. As @Dans La Lune pointed out that can include everyone from progressive democrats to moderate republicans.

For socialism I mean any system where the majority of economic output is produced through systems that are collectively or democratically owned.

Questerr · Feb 28, 2023

Manchin and Sinema are examples of Liberals, so is Biden.

They aren’t allies of socialism. They are barely allies of progressivism.

Nomad4Ever · Feb 28, 2023

Fearandloathing said:
I strongly suggest you read a book on political science. Anything. Coles notes.

It would be helpful if you elaborated on exactly what part of my post you are criticizing.

btthegreat · Feb 28, 2023

Nomad4Ever said:
In the broadest sense, any system where the majority of capital (factories, firms, anything that is used to produce value) is controlled democratically or collectively.

I am personally a libertarian market socialist and believe most firms should be operated as worker cooperatives but that non-essential goods should still be distributed through a market system.

That is precisely what makes this question tricky. Depending on which branch of socialism we are looking at, I can see myself finding some areas of agreement. My liberalism says if there is a problem that capitalism presents in a given industry, first we should look to regulation or collective bargaining in the industry to tweek a solution. If that is not successful, then we need to look for a bigger bat. I do NOT exclude a socialist statutory remedy requiring a stronger and stronger presence of worker power, including partial ownership in that industry.

I prefer the least invasive solution that solves the problem whichcapitalism creates, perpetuates or which cannot solve on its own.

I would describe myself as ally in some battles, but not the war.

bomberfox · Feb 28, 2023

Questerr said:
Manchin and Sinema are examples of Liberals, so is Biden.

They aren’t allies of socialism. They are barely allies of progressivism.

Manchin and sinema definitely not allies of democracy.

Nomad4Ever · Feb 28, 2023

Questerr said:
Manchin and Sinema are examples of Liberals, so is Biden.

They aren’t allies of socialism. They are barely allies of progressivism.

I guess I should of phrased it as "can they be allies to socialism". Obviously if someone is not a socialist they aren't going to care about socialism.

Really my argument is that liberals are the people that need to be brought over to build an effective socialist movement. That people like Biden and people that support Biden can be convinced usually by answering questions about how socialism would work, whereas conservatives don't care how socialism would work because they are fundamentally opposed to the goal of trying to create a more equal society. Liberals aren't inherently opposed to that goal but they believe it is best achieved through capitalism.

Fearandloathing · Feb 28, 2023

Nomad4Ever said:
I defined liberal in my OP in the literal terms; i.e. someone who believes in the values of liberalism derived from the enlightenment. As @Dans La Lune pointed out that can include everyone from progressive democrats to moderate republicans.

For socialism I mean any system where the majority of economic output is produced through systems that are collectively or democratically owned.

That's more than social policy. "Socialism" is a wide spectrum of ideas, from co-op owned companies and factories to universal health care. Canada is often considered 'socialist' because of medicare and some very strong social policies, but the economy is free market as much as anything is 'free market" any more

Roger Duke · Feb 28, 2023

Liberals think that all the free stuff that Democrats buy votes with comes from the government. They have no idea it comes from taxpayers.
It's like Margaret Thatcher said...."Socialism is fine until you run out of other people's money."
Democrats will probably win most elections in the future because they'll offer more "free" stuff. The strategy will work well...until it doesn't.
The answer to the OP is yes. Liberals are wimpy and soft. They want big brother government to take care of them from cradle to grave....that's so much easier than actually accepting responsibility.

aociswundumho · Feb 28, 2023

Dans La Lune said:
Marx was only ever concerned about people getting the value of their work, rather than having that value exploited and extracted. It's bizarre how that is seen as extreme and un-American even by some left-leaning Democrats.

Yet it's fine for the state to take a huge chunk of the worker's income via taxation. The "surplus value" is a trivial amount compared to what the state confiscates from the workers.

Dans La Lune said:
I see socialism as a spectrum rather than an absolute, so yes there can be alliances when goals converge on policy. I don't think anything in its pure form healthy or even realistic -- including socialism. A pure form of socialism would be only slightly less monstrous than pure capitalism. A reasonable goal is a Social Democracy, as you'd experience in Nordic countries, aka the happiest places on Earth.

Of course you pick the places where taxes are the highest. Btw, that happiness bullshit has been repeatedly debunked:

The Danish Don't Have the Secret to Happiness

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark.

www.theatlantic.com

Sorry, liberals, Scandinavian countries aren’t utopias

Want proof that the liberal social-democratic society works? Look to Denmark, the country that routinely leads the world in happiness surveys. It’s also notable for having the highest taxes on Eart…

nypost.com

vegas giants · Feb 28, 2023

Roger Duke said:
Liberals think that all the free stuff that Democrats buy votes with comes from the government. They have no idea it comes from taxpayers.
It's like Margaret Thatcher said...."Socialism is fine until you run out of other people's money."
Democrats will probably win most elections in the future because they'll offer more "free" stuff. The strategy will work well...until it doesn't.
The answer to the OP is yes. Liberals are wimpy and soft. They want big brother government to take care of them from cradle to grave....that's so much easier than actually accepting responsibility.

Yeah you guys are screwed

TheGoverness · Feb 28, 2023

Nomad4Ever said:
"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"

A saying thrown around by some leftists. Generally used either to deride liberals for not taking fascism seriously enough thereby allowing them to take power, or to imply that liberals still hold some fascistic beliefs (maybe being pro cop, or pro US international corporate imperialism).

Socialists and liberals have, historically, had a fairly confrontational relationship. The example most frequently used is Rosa Luxembourg and the socialists who were rounded up, arrested, or killed after allying with the social democrats to overthrow the German Empire.

But just because there are some bad historical examples, does that mean liberals are inherently enemies to socialism? I don't think so. Liberalism as a philosophy was built on the ideas of the enlightenment. Democracy, equality under the law, social justice, etc. Since virtually all socialist theory is built on top of the same enlightenment values, socialists and liberals almost always at least share the same value system. That is to say our ethical frameworks for how we view the world are similar. For example, if I am arguing for socialism with a conservative, often there is almost no way I can reach them. The argument that "we can create a more equal and fair society" fails at ground 0 against someone who isn't interested in making society equal. Whereas arguments about socialism with liberals usually boils down to liberal not believing socialism can actually create a more equal society, not that the pursuit of such a society is inherently bad.

For liberals, and especially progressive social democrats, the barrier between being socialist is generally just that they believe socialism is unfeasible, not that its goals are bad. You'll hear arguments like, "the ideals are nice but it would never work" or "well regulated capitalism with a welfare state is the best system".

So, can liberals be potential allies to building socialism? I think so. They are the largest political block and their ethical values are more aligned with socialist ones than other political groups. I think leftists should spend more time answering questions liberals have about how socialism would work and doing outreach instead of assuming they are a lost cause (the most common belief in my experience). If you want to have enough people in your political movement you need to convince wine moms and soccer dads.

Yes. I'm no fan of gatekeeping.

Nomad4Ever · Feb 28, 2023

btthegreat said:
That is precisely what makes this question tricky. Depending on which branch of socialism we are looking at, I can see myself finding some areas of agreement. My liberalism says if there is a problem that capitalism presents in a given industry, first we should look to regulation or collective bargaining in the industry to tweek a solution. If that is not successful, then we need to look for a bigger bat. I do NOT exclude a socialist statutory remedy requiring a stronger and stronger presence of worker power, including partial ownership in that industry.

I prefer the least invasive solution that solves the problem whichcapitalism creates, perpetuates or which cannot solve on its own.

I would describe myself as ally in some battles, but not the war.

I guess the way I see it is you can remove as lot of those problems by not having firms controlled by just a few individuals. We came to the conclusion that kings and autocrats generally don't make as good decisions for society as a democracy does when it comes to our government. Why does that not extend to corporations too? Why should the decisions of a company like Walmart, the single largest employer in the US, be made by a few people? Walmart will come into a small town, put everything else out of business, and then pay people shit wages for the privilege of working at the last employer left within 50 miles. Would the people that live in those towns allow that to happen if they weren't powerless?

mrjurrs · Feb 28, 2023

By definition, political liberals are more associated with economic socialism than political conservatives.

Mr Person · Feb 28, 2023

"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"

A saying thrown around by some leftists

I have never heard that, for the little it's worth...

tshade · Feb 28, 2023

Nomad4Ever said:
"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"

A saying thrown around by some leftists. Generally used either to deride liberals for not taking fascism seriously enough thereby allowing them to take power, or to imply that liberals still hold some fascistic beliefs (maybe being pro cop, or pro US international corporate imperialism).

Socialists and liberals have, historically, had a fairly confrontational relationship. The example most frequently used is Rosa Luxembourg and the socialists who were rounded up, arrested, or killed after allying with the social democrats to overthrow the German Empire.

But just because there are some bad historical examples, does that mean liberals are inherently enemies to socialism? I don't think so. Liberalism as a philosophy was built on the ideas of the enlightenment. Democracy, equality under the law, social justice, etc. Since virtually all socialist theory is built on top of the same enlightenment values, socialists and liberals almost always at least share the same value system. That is to say our ethical frameworks for how we view the world are similar. For example, if I am arguing for socialism with a conservative, often there is almost no way I can reach them. The argument that "we can create a more equal and fair society" fails at ground 0 against someone who isn't interested in making society equal. Whereas arguments about socialism with liberals usually boils down to liberal not believing socialism can actually create a more equal society, not that the pursuit of such a society is inherently bad.

For liberals, and especially progressive social democrats, the barrier between being socialist is generally just that they believe socialism is unfeasible, not that its goals are bad. You'll hear arguments like, "the ideals are nice but it would never work" or "well regulated capitalism with a welfare state is the best system".

So, can liberals be potential allies to building socialism? I think so. They are the largest political block and their ethical values are more aligned with socialist ones than other political groups. I think leftists should spend more time answering questions liberals have about how socialism would work and doing outreach instead of assuming they are a lost cause (the most common belief in my experience). If you want to have enough people in your political movement you need to convince wine moms and soccer dads.

I would say that nearly no liberals are socialists...............most are Dems of GOP members

Chomsky · Feb 28, 2023

Nomad4Ever said:
"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"

A saying thrown around by some leftists. Generally used either to deride liberals for not taking fascism seriously enough thereby allowing them to take power, or to imply that liberals still hold some fascistic beliefs (maybe being pro cop, or pro US international corporate imperialism).

Socialists and liberals have, historically, had a fairly confrontational relationship. The example most frequently used is Rosa Luxembourg and the socialists who were rounded up, arrested, or killed after allying with the social democrats to overthrow the German Empire.

But just because there are some bad historical examples, does that mean liberals are inherently enemies to socialism? I don't think so. Liberalism as a philosophy was built on the ideas of the enlightenment. Democracy, equality under the law, social justice, etc. Since virtually all socialist theory is built on top of the same enlightenment values, socialists and liberals almost always at least share the same value system. That is to say our ethical frameworks for how we view the world are similar. For example, if I am arguing for socialism with a conservative, often there is almost no way I can reach them. The argument that "we can create a more equal and fair society" fails at ground 0 against someone who isn't interested in making society equal. Whereas arguments about socialism with liberals usually boils down to liberal not believing socialism can actually create a more equal society, not that the pursuit of such a society is inherently bad.

Nomad4Ever said:
For liberals, and especially progressive social democrats, the barrier between being socialist is generally just that they believe socialism is unfeasible, not that its goals are bad. You'll hear arguments like, "the ideals are nice but it would never work" or "well regulated capitalism with a welfare state is the best system".

So, can liberals be potential allies to building socialism? I think so. They are the largest political block and their ethical values are more aligned with socialist ones than other political groups. I think leftists should spend more time answering questions liberals have about how socialism would work and doing outreach instead of assuming they are a lost cause (the most common belief in my experience). If you want to have enough people in your political movement you need to convince wine moms and soccer dads.

As someone who considers himself a Social Democrat (as can be seen in my avatar sig), I think I disagree with that I bolded.

Social Democrats adhere to capitalism, they just want to practiced it with due social restraint. The main difference between Socialists and Social Democrats, is the economic means of production. As capitalists, Social Democrats - in classical textbook definition - would never preclude the economic means of production from private individuals. Whereas Socialists, as we know, remove the means of economic production from individuals. And this last, of course, is what freaks so many out (rightfully so!).

I believe "Democratic Socialists" might be the term for the attributes you're describing. Democratic Socialists, which unlike Social Democrats are indeed an offshoot of pure Socialism, differ by preferring a Democratic governance while keeping a Socialist economy. They, as you described, see Socialism as the goal - realizing they can't get there in one fell swoop.

Chomsky · Feb 28, 2023

Mr Person said:
"Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds"

A saying thrown around by some leftists

I have never heard that, for the little it's worth...

Neither have I. That actually strikes me as something that would be a derogatory meme fired from the Right!

aociswundumho · Feb 28, 2023

Nomad4Ever said:
But just because there are some bad historical examples, does that mean liberals are inherently enemies to socialism? I don't think so. Liberalism as a philosophy was built on the ideas of the enlightenment. Democracy, equality under the law, social justice, etc. Since virtually all socialist theory is built on top of the same enlightenment values, socialists and liberals almost always at least share the same value system. That is to say our ethical frameworks for how we view the world are similar. For example, if I am arguing for socialism with a conservative, often there is almost no way I can reach them. The argument that "we can create a more equal and fair society" fails at ground 0 against someone who isn't interested in making society equal. Whereas arguments about socialism with liberals usually boils down to liberal not believing socialism can actually create a more equal society, not that the pursuit of such a society is inherently bad.

It has to do with the way leftists want to go about it. When a leftist says he wants a more equal society, it means chopping down the tall poppies:

Tall poppy syndrome - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Nomad4Ever said:
For liberals, and especially progressive social democrats, the barrier between being socialist is generally just that they believe socialism is unfeasible, not that its goals are bad. You'll hear arguments like, "the ideals are nice but it would never work" or "well regulated capitalism with a welfare state is the best system".

My own view is socialism would work on a large scale if self-interest wasn't part of human nature. Consider a family farm 100 years ago. All the members of the family farm contribute according to their ability, and each takes according to their needs. If one gets sick or injured, the other family members naturally take care of them, and what they produce is shared in a fair way.

While this model works great when people have a strong emotional bond, it quickly falls apart with strangers. The larger you try to scale it up, the more violence necessary to keep everyone in line.

Nomad4Ever said:
So, can liberals be potential allies to building socialism? I think so. They are the largest political block and their ethical values are more aligned with socialist ones than other political groups. I think leftists should spend more time answering questions liberals have about how socialism would work and doing outreach instead of assuming they are a lost cause (the most common belief in my experience). If you want to have enough people in your political movement you need to convince wine moms and soccer dads.

Ginger Ale · Feb 28, 2023

I think a social democracy works well. So, maybe I'm one of those. lol

Are liberals allies to socialism?

Are liberals allies to socialism?

Yes

No

It depends

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