Are Americans really that ignorant to the world?

CaptainCourtesy said:

A couple of things about this. I use both Windows and Linux. All you say is interesting, true, and irrelevant. It is the ease of use of Windows that, currently creates an environment where Linux cannot overtake it. linux requires too much user intervention. Also because such a large percentage of computers are Windows-based and documents are not interchangable with Linux systems, switching would not be cost effective.

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You know why Linux has not overtaken Micosoft yet in popularity? Because of proprietary formats and incompatability between MS and the rest of the OS world, where MS close their formats so that they cannot be used on other systems, this discourage Microsoft users, especially people who dont know to much about computers to change. Also the constant Microsoft threats towards linux like saying they will sue them is not helping..

Everything in Windows Vista is cloned and rewritten Linux and MacOSX code, nothing is made by Microsoft, they just copied stuff that was invented in Linux and Mac.. Wow, windows finally has transparent windows, Linux had that since last millenium, wow, Microsoft has a 3d style Dektop, this has also existed in Linux for years. In Vista you can encrypt files if you buy the most expensive version, that you have been able to in Linux since the beginning, even in XP you can do that with free programmes.
Vista security is enhanced, very good indeed now... Yet not nearly as secure as open source Linux, account rights in windows is a joke, security is also a joke, the code is full of mistakes that dont get taken care of.

There is nothing innovative about Windows Vista except the outrageous price. Its not even compareable to Linux which in my opinion is superior in all ways, and so much more configurable. Microsoft gives you a certain number of features, in Linux this in unlimited.

Linux is a system of the future, for intelligent computer users who want individual solutions rather than a uniform solution. Its open and always backwards compatible, its growing and when the next Microsoft system hits the market, there will be so many Linux programs and features available that the new Microsoft system will look like a bad joke.
Linux is always growing, while Microsoft grows, then relsease a new system that shrinks things, then grows again, this is a limit.

Which Linux system do you use btw? Personally I use Slackware Linux, its so delicious I cant even compare it with Windows.
As Linux knowledge grows and people realize they need new knowledge with every Windows release, Linux will just grow more and more. Linux is very cost effective if the knowledge is there.

CaptainC said:

Perhaps in Europe. Speaking for myself, I've had a Volvo, Nissan, Subaru, and a Ford. The Ford was BY FAR the best of the four.

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Well, you cant really compare a Ford with a BMW for example, and much less with Mercedez for example. In Europe you see Mercedez, BMWs as the most used cars, thats what you see in the streets. If not German cars there are also lots of French cars. Toyota is not that popular yet, American cars, some fords, but Ive yet to see a GM in Europe.

CaptainC said:

Nope. Karmashock was right. As was I. It was a condescending bash. You assume that the US does not engage in diplomacy nor is intelligent enough to do so. Totally false statements.

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But Karma also said that sanctions is diplomacy. The US never engaged in diplomatic efforts with Iran, yet they are threatening with military attacks. How ****ing stupid is that? I never said the US isnt intelligent enough to do that, I am sure they can if they want, but why dont they?

Karmashock said:

Then remember the old proverb (which I think I'm paraphrasing): You will reap what you sow. Signatures like that only enhance the perception that others see in you. If, as you claim, you do not dislike American or Americans, remove it. Not a mod suggestion...a fellow poster suggestion to keep in line with what you profess.

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Well, I will never stop critisizing American politics, government or political individuals just because I like your country. Nor will I stop to generalize about groups of Americans that I feel deserve it(like those zho re-elected Bush).

I never generalized about the whole American population, the most I generalized about is say, 52% of them.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I know you never said that. It was more of an example of the difference between criticism and bashing.



Well, I don't agree about the comment. It was arrogant and condescending. When someone says, 'I'm the brain, you're the brawn', the insinuation that 'I'm smart, you're not' is pretty clear. Perhaps this was not your intention, but it is how it came across.

I said this once before, on a thread we went round and round on, though less contentiously. I'm wondering if there is a language barrier here that we are not noticing. If your intention is not to bash America, yet so many perceive your posts as such, maybe language is the issue. Is English your first language?

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You see, you are oversensitive about anything that is said about the US, you are willing to misunderstand things, and as soon as you see a sentance that MAY be bashigly in the tone you never doubt its bashing over critics.


English is my fifth language. It may be a language issue.

Maximus Zeebra said:

You know why Linux has not overtaken Micosoft yet in popularity? Because of proprietary formats and incompatability between MS and the rest of the OS world, where MS close their formats so that they cannot be used on other systems, this discourage Microsoft users, especially people who dont know to much about computers to change. Also the constant Microsoft threats towards linux like saying they will sue them is not helping..

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I agree. Windows proprietary format and refusal to open things up to outside developers, preventing interoperability is why Linux has not overtaken Microsoft. And unless this changes, I don't see Linux being able to overtake Microsoft.

Everything in Windows Vista is cloned and rewritten Linux and MacOSX code, nothing is made by Microsoft, they just copied stuff that was invented in Linux and Mac.. Wow, windows finally has transparent windows, Linux had that since last millenium, wow, Microsoft has a 3d style Dektop, this has also existed in Linux for years. In Vista you can encrypt files if you buy the most expensive version, that you have been able to in Linux since the beginning, even in XP you can do that with free programmes.
Vista security is enhanced, very good indeed now... Yet not nearly as secure as open source Linux, account rights in windows is a joke, security is also a joke, the code is full of mistakes that dont get taken care of.

There is nothing innovative about Windows Vista except the outrageous price. Its not even compareable to Linux which in my opinion is superior in all ways, and so much more configurable. Microsoft gives you a certain number of features, in Linux this in unlimited.

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I don't see anything here I disagree with, but...

Linux is a system of the future, for intelligent computer users who want individual solutions rather than a uniform solution. Its open and always backwards compatible, its growing and when the next Microsoft system hits the market, there will be so many Linux programs and features available that the new Microsoft system will look like a bad joke.
Linux is always growing, while Microsoft grows, then relsease a new system that shrinks things, then grows again, this is a limit.

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Here's the problem. Most computer users are not 'intelligent' computer users. They just want the system to work as simply and easily as possible with as little user intervention as possible. They don't want to mount drives, or unpack software manually. Until Linux can become more user-friendly with less intervention, Windows will remain king, regardless of how good or bad their software is. And since Windows prevents compatibility, I don't see Linux becoming much easier in the near future.

Which Linux system do you use btw? Personally I use Slackware Linux, its so delicious I cant even compare it with Windows.
As Linux knowledge grows and people realize they need new knowledge with every Windows release, Linux will just grow more and more. Linux is very cost effective if the knowledge is there.

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I've messed with a number of distros. I like SuSE the best.

Well, you cant really compare a Ford with a BMW for example, and much less with Mercedez for example. In Europe you see Mercedez, BMWs as the most used cars, thats what you see in the streets. If not German cars there are also lots of French cars. Toyota is not that popular yet, American cars, some fords, but Ive yet to see a GM in Europe.

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Just my experience. Love my Ford, though I recognize YMMV.

But Karma also said that sanctions is diplomacy. The US never engaged in diplomatic efforts with Iran, yet they are threatening with military attacks. How ****ing stupid is that? I never said the US isnt intelligent enough to do that, I am sure they can if they want, but why dont they?

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I don't agree that sanctions are not diplomatic. They may be 'aggressive' diplomacy, but are diplomatic, nonetheless, and can be effective at times.

Well, I will never stop critisizing American politics, government or political individuals just because I like your country. Nor will I stop to generalize about groups of Americans that I feel deserve it(like those zho re-elected Bush).

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Without criticism there can be no change. Just remember who you are criticizing. Many who confront you on your 'bashing' comments are absolutely not Bush-supporters, me included.

I never generalized about the whole American population, the most I generalized about is say, 52% of them.

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Then I would encourage you to be specific about this, but remember that even inside this group there are variability in beliefs.

Maximus Zeebra said:

You see, you are oversensitive about anything that is said about the US, you are willing to misunderstand things, and as soon as you see a sentance that MAY be bashigly in the tone you never doubt its bashing over critics.

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Disagree. I debate you a lot and am selective about what I confront you on. On another thread, someone pointed out to me, in-thread, that you had bashed; instead of confronting you, I warned them, as your comment was not condescending or anti-American. Your accusations of oversensitivity are also condescending to me. It negates my point with some sort of moral superiority. I believe I have been very clear about my issues with your posts. I have not insulted you. I would appreciate if you take my observations seriously. You don't need to agree with them; just don't negate them, automatically.

English is my fifth language. It may be a language issue.

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I will be aware of this in the future. Could be part of the issue.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I agree. Windows proprietary format and refusal to open things up to outside developers, preventing interoperability is why Linux has not overtaken Microsoft. And unless this changes, I don't see Linux being able to overtake Microsoft.

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It is changing, Microsoft has realized they need to go for open STANDARDS, like xml, open documents etc. They made an alternative to open offices open file formats and trying to patent them, but open office formats is going to be the standards, its already made ISO.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Here's the problem. Most computer users are not 'intelligent' computer users. They just want the system to work as simply and easily as possible with as little user intervention as possible. They don't want to mount drives, or unpack software manually. Until Linux can become more user-friendly with less intervention, Windows will remain king, regardless of how good or bad their software is. And since Windows prevents compatibility, I don't see Linux becoming much easier in the near future.

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Well the future is intelligent not uniform.. The future is also individual not uniform. People want to feel special, they want individual solutions.

There are hundreds of different Linux distributions, that do everything from being a system you completely have to define yourself to systems that are basically automatic. RPM and apt-get is like microsoft installations, its automized and will become standards for automization. But the thing is with Linux you can CHOOSE if you want it automatically or compile it all your self.. People want choices, thats why Linux will prevail.

CaptainCourtesy said:

I've messed with a number of distros. I like SuSE the best.

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SuSE is more automatic type of distro, right? I tried it many years ago, but not recently. You tried any other distroes? Why didnt you choose any of those?

CaptainCourtesy said:

I don't agree that sanctions are not diplomatic. They may be 'aggressive' diplomacy, but are diplomatic, nonetheless, and can be effective at times.

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Diplomacy defined by Princeton dictionary.
# negotiation between nations
# delicacy: subtly skillful handling of a situation
# statesmanship: wisdom in the management of public affairs
# Tact and skill in dealing with people

CaptainCourtesy said:

Without criticism there can be no change. Just remember who you are criticizing. Many who confront you on your 'bashing' comments are absolutely not Bush-supporters, me included.

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I am not bashing, you guys are being oversensitive. You look for ANYTHING that CAN be bashing.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Then I would encourage you to be specific about this, but remember that even inside this group there are variability in beliefs.

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I am aware of that, maybe I am not just specific enough. Some things are difficult to define.

CaptainCourtesy said:

Disagree. I debate you a lot and am selective about what I confront you on. On another thread, someone pointed out to me, in-thread, that you had bashed; instead of confronting you, I warned them, as your comment was not condescending or anti-American. Your accusations of oversensitivity are also condescending to me. It negates my point with some sort of moral superiority. I believe I have been very clear about my issues with your posts. I have not insulted you. I would appreciate if you take my observations seriously. You don't need to agree with them; just don't negate them, automatically.

I will be aware of this in the future. Could be part of the issue.

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Well, you are one of the people on this forum I do respect and whos way of debating I do respect, but in some cases IN MY opinion, you also sometimes draw to the bashing conclution too fast.

In my opinion I never bash, just try to debate, sometimes critisize and some times just point out stuff or ask a question.

It is common knowledge that global populations tend to know more about America than we know about them. There are reasons.

1) One is that we appear to be the source of entertainment for the masses who reflect on their own culture as a little boring. Our culture is even more excisting. We offer Hollywood. Our movies are international smashes and every country lines up at their local theaters to see our films. Our musical bands and singers are international smashes (along with the British and Canadian entertainers.) Even Germany can't live without our garbage - David Hasselfoff.

2) Despite our critics tantrums, we are the only really dependable government in a crisis. No matter how long it takes or what our effort entails, we are always on the scene. No matter what the crisis, the world's first throught is to see what America is going to do. Which is also why we are so hated by our critics and enemies. It has always been true that our enemies have always hated us far more than we ever hated them.

3) We simply do not care about what is going on inside insignificant countries that mostly act as vacation spots for us. As the world lines up to cast their vote on whether or not they like America in weekly polls, we are flipping channels, and largely minding our own business.

But, our attention to the rest of the world is a little unfair when being described as brutally as "ignorance." We tend to see things differently. We are the optimists against the wave of global pessimists. Since we have not had to host irresponsible World Wars on our soil and our religions don't really have a claim to some "holy land," we are largely absent of all the restrictions such occurrences set in an individual's mind-and that of a civilization's. Our global position seperates us (thankfully) from the blood stained continents and regions. Our role has always been to isolate to some degree and reach out with our military to settle scores. We are relatively safe from harm and when we have been attacked, we simply take the war to their lands.

Having the ability to live as we do without the fear of a border nation (or region) and the burden of being a global protectorate allows us to focus on other things - sometimes larger things, which takes away from our internal developments that other countries have the luxury of doing. But thus far, "ignorance" about Islam and the Middle East appears to unite Americans with the rest of the world.

In other words, "ignorance" is a tragedy shared by all countries-some worse than others because their ignorance will get them killed.

GySgt said:

It is common knowledge that global populations tend to know more about America than we know about them. There are reasons.

1) One is that we appear to be the source of entertainment for the masses who reflect on their own culture as a little boring. Our culture is even more excisting. We offer Hollywood. Our movies are international smashes and every country lines up at their local theaters to see our films. Our musical bands and singers are international smashes (along with the British and Canadian entertainers.) Even Germany can't live without our garbage - David Hasselfoff.

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Yet a majority of good hollywood actors are brits, yet a majority of the most famous and well paid hollywood actors are brits.
Who here on this forum would know that 24 star Kiefer Sutherland who seem so American is actually British? To be honest with you, the brits actually dominate the entertainment world, either from the UK or via the US.

i didnt really think of that before you mentioned Canadians and brits.

GySgt said:

3) We simply do not care about what is going on inside insignificant countries that mostly act as vacation spots for us. As the world lines up to cast their vote on whether or not they like America in weekly polls, we are flipping channels, and largely minding our own business.

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So you admit Americans are ignorant. I am sure Bush and his government is eating potato chips and watching desperate housewifes when taking decisions."chaney, lets just do this thing", "yeajh sure", "teri hatcher is so hot";....

GySgt said:

But, our attention to the rest of the world is a little unfair when being described as brutally as "ignorance." We tend to see things differently. We are the optimists against the wave of global pessimists.

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Thats where you guys missed the whole boat. What you think about the world is mostly wrong, what you think about yourselves is what the government wants you to think.

GySgt said:

In other words, "ignorance" is a tragedy shared by all countries-some worse than others because their ignorance will get them killed.

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I am glad you agree on this. The US government iand population is "ignorant" about the consequences of their choices.
Like many people believe, terrorism will only become worse in coming years because of the US war on terror, and especially because of Iraq. its funny to be ignorant and a prick about this until a large US city vanish in a mushroom cloud because you pissed the terrorists off so much that they just HAD to retaliate worse.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Like many people believe, terrorism will only become worse in coming years because of the US war on terror, and especially because of Iraq. its funny to be ignorant and a prick about this until a large US city vanish in a mushroom cloud because you pissed the terrorists off so much that they just HAD to retaliate worse.

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As opposed to doing what after the 9/11 attacks??

Maximus Zeebra said:

I dont give a **** man.. I dont care about you Americans oversensitivity about the US, that just doesnt change the fact that Bush is a retard, your current government a bunch of loosers and your foreign policies a complete ****ing failure.

If you think thats anti-America, then I just done give a ****, because its all true.

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....and me without my Kleenex.

1) There is a definition for "retard" and it is a medical condition. President Bush doesn't fit your description.

2) Our government is made up of tens of thousands of personel. Calling them a "bunch of losers" doesn't really criticize anything constructively.

3) Our foreign policies are in need of an over haul and they are slowly taking another form. 9/11 demanded a redress. However, the current outdated system of diplomacy is based off of European statecraft and it kept your region of the world safe from harm throughout the Cold War. I might also add that if you looked really really hard into French/African affairs, you will see yesterday's foreign policy still very much in affect and set in concrete.


Seems to me that what you consider as "all true" is mostly just a lot of ignorant hot wind being blown around to compensate your own region's failures in the world. And what failures would these be? Let's just call them World War I and World War II. During the Cold War, America was mocked for its ill-judged support of dictators because they were "our dictators." Now our government has left the distortions of the past behind and returned to America's traditional role of championing freedoms. And look how the tables have turned. Europe's left (though you claim to be its right) so hates us and all we stand for that the dictators have become "their dictators." Of course, European intellectuals supported Stalin too. On one level, the European left's protests against all things American are understandable. We won. They lost. All their cherished rhetoric led only to the Gulag in the East and to bankrupt welfare states in the West. Now, the East, where terror reigned, aligns with America for support of protection and prosperity despite a surface allegiance to the local EU, further angering the West Europeans who lived on credit for the past fifty years, loafing in the shade of American might. Now they emerge as pretend pacifist ever seeking to be our moral superiors. Well, a crucial reason why continental Europeans reacted so angrily to our liberation of Iraq was that it made it harder for them to sustain their myth of a benign world in which peace could be purchased on the backs of the suffering.

Pundits warn us solemnly that we must not ever again go to war "without allies." But it would be wiser to go to war alone than with false allies at our backs. If you cannot trust those on whom your life may depend, you had better learn self-reliance. You may find our current government despicable, but this is mostly because when we liberated Iraq we also liberated ourselves from the prison of empty alliances.


There....see how I criticize constructively and accurately without the adolecsent sophomorics?

Maximus Zeebra said:

Thats what I say.. If you believe patents will stop China from figuring out what the secrets of Intel are, then you are completely wrong. And in 20 years intel will just be a tiny chipmaker ina market dominated by the Chinese who have rapid development due to no patants, and Intel just cannot follow.

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Intel is inventing new stuff all the time. To do something better then them you'd have to do MORE research then them.

BMW is assembled and made in Germany, Munich and about 20 other German cities, 2 English cities and now looking to start one factory in China. Hardly made in China that.

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You're not listening. When they are made in china did the chinese INVENT the car?

No. You're wrong. thank you for doing business please come again.

Ford is now known as a crap car in most of Europe, people who are not poor, shy buying Fords.

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Of course it is... it's an american company and it's become very popular in europe to bash american anything. Think about it.

Well, European car makers dominate every motor sport except Nascar.. Now, I dont want to be rude to Nascar, but what a ridiculous car sport, round and round and round 1000 laps. How exciting.. Awful motorsport that.

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I don't watch any motor sports and frankly don't find F1 any more interesting then any of the rest.

Yes it is.. Did you know Microsoft is patenting RSS? Its a widely used technology on the net, and Microsoft had nothing to do with inventing it.

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Are you sure? prehaps they just invented it a long time ago? And even if you're right as I assume you are... they have to take that to a patient court... if you don't counter their claim then who's to blame?


You could also ignore what MS is doing and then wait for them to sue you for using RSS... and then simply point out that their patients are invalid.


Either way have a little faith in the system and stop whining.

14 years in the nanoworld is enough to effectivly stop any rapid development. What if everything that is discovered is patented, and each company around the world sit with one or two patents of nanotech, and the progress completely stops because of it.?
Nanotech needs to be based on the open source principle.

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As I said, the patient system needs to be reformed. But saying that there shouldn't be patients in certain fields is ignorant. you are removing the economic incentive to make discoveries and new inventions in the field. that is just stupid. Period.

It gets you a 100 companies who make their living off an OS that is far superior to the overcharged 500 bucks Microsoft OS that is just updated every 5 or so years..
Now, whats the change between Windows 98 and Windows Vista?

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Too huge to be explained here... you know that... if you don't then you shouldn't be having this conversation.

The theme and colours....
They drastically started upgrading the themes after Windows2000, you see huge changes in themes form 2000-XP-Vista.

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They're competing with OSX... not linux when they're making the OS pretty.


Things like .net where made to help compete with linux.

If you beg France to come and help you our of your mess in Iraq, I am sure they will..

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No they wouldn't. They'd get too much of a thrill out of kicking us in the face while we were on our knees.

Judging by world events the last 10-15 years, thats how it will have to be..
Judging by the leader you have choosen, that feeling is enhanced.
Judging by your current course in foreign affairs, its just the way it must be.

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Over my dead body. :censored


If this kind of arrogance is representative of europe then you have no place questioning the US to begin with. Astounding.

Yes, it depends on income.. But the average tax burdon... The average tax burdon is highest in Belgium and Sweden at just over 50% each.

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Ok, but what does that include? everything? sales tax? or the "value added tax" as they like to call it in europe?... despite the fact that the only thing being added is a tax...

Ohh yes, but you see, I have French blood in my veins also, so I can be quite a snobbish and arrogant bastard at times, especially if provoked, almost like Parisians, eyh?

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It doesn't mean it you can do it without consequences... just like the french... You pay a price when you do that.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Yet a majority of good hollywood actors are brits, yet a majority of the most famous and well paid hollywood actors are brits.
Who here on this forum would know that 24 star Kiefer Sutherland who seem so American is actually British? To be honest with you, the brits actually dominate the entertainment world, either from the UK or via the US.

i didnt really think of that before you mentioned Canadians and brits.

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And immediately you seek to find anything that might make America second. This time your desperations even seek to split the great Anglo alliance. I'm taking a wild guess here that you are not aware that the overwhelming actors and musicians that come out of Hollywood and American studios are American. And those that want to hit the big time seek an American approval? But thanks for playing.

However, notice that the British, Canadians, and Americans are English speaking countries? The same type of countries that have been saving the world and keeping it secure for over a hundred years? The international language of business is English. Some countries have their huge exceptions that show they have great things to contribute culturally. The Swedes had ABBA, and the Spanish have Pan's Labyrinth. Where's the French or German contribution? Where's the great talent from the Continent's cultural dead zone?

Who speaks French but waiters and dictators?

Maximus Zeebra said:

So you admit Americans are ignorant. I am sure Bush and his government is eating potato chips and watching desperate housewifes when taking decisions."chaney, lets just do this thing", "yeajh sure", "teri hatcher is so hot";....

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And yet another example of playground foolishness from Maximum Zeebra. A little tantrum mixed with infantile frustration.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Thats where you guys missed the whole boat. What you think about the world is mostly wrong, what you think about yourselves is what the government wants you to think.

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And yet another example of playground foolishness from Maximum Zeebra. A little tantrum mixed with infantile frustration.

Maximus Zeebra said:

I am glad you agree on this. The US government iand population is "ignorant" about the consequences of their choices.
Like many people believe, terrorism will only become worse in coming years because of the US war on terror, and especially because of Iraq. its funny to be ignorant and a prick about this until a large US city vanish in a mushroom cloud because you pissed the terrorists off so much that they just HAD to retaliate worse.

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As opposed to kissing the terrorists asses and winding up under a mushroom cloud? I'm afraid puckering up is a European trait..not an American one. You walked your way into WWII and you are walking your way into Radical Islam. We believe that it was already getting worse and Europe will feel the brunt of it. I agree that all countries have their bit of ignorance towards the world. Not that your simplistic hatreds have merit. No matter what, it appears that you absolutely have to bash Americans. Problem is, you are too obtuse to do it correctly.

A mushroom cloud on American soil means that a martyr traveled over and detonated for his God. It also means the complete annihilation of much of the Middle East. We can cope, because their launch retaliation will only be able to reach as far as Europe. How will you cope? Especially after America turns to France and Germany and says "nyet" of "non."

Karmashock said:

They're competing with OSX... not linux when they're making the OS pretty.


Things like .net where made to help compete with linux.

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Actually, .net is was developed to compete with Java (also American).

ARealConservative said:

Actually, .net is was developed to compete with Java (also American).

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Same market though. The whole java, perl, .net, linux, open source thing is something that you're either interested in or not. Small business typically from what I've seen isn't. They use pay software made by big companies with closed source. Home users typically are the same... and they like things simple and want to be able to play games too usually... oh they also like the OS to be pretty. So macs compete there but you get a little of everything in the home market. Big business is mixed too but it's more consistent. Typically workstations are windows rarely is it any other way. Servers tend to be where things get weird. I still see lots of novell servers for some reason in LA. The city government uses a LOT of novell servers. Anyway you see linux and windows servers as well... but because they're typically using the best hardware of the three markets they tend to have things customized for specific tasks.

Karmashock said:

Not still, you cannot base your belief that you know more about americans because you watch our tv. I am not a damn television program.

I don't have super powers, cannot cast magical spells, don't shoot people on a regular basis, and have never once traveled at warp speed.


Just no.

That just shows our tv is more professional. Ultimately every person in a tv show is a CHARACTER created by a WRITER in a SCRIPT for a SHOW to get RATINGS to sell AD TIME.

That will not generate an accurate image of America. Don't you understand, tv is used to ESCAPE from reality. So it's not going to have much to DO with reality.

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Well if American fiction show have people acting like Swedish people being shy, watching soccer instead of fotball, celebrate midsumer instead of thanskgiving, New York looked liked Stockholm and in your political show you hade a primeminister that had to negoiate with multiple partys. Then the avarage american would say what a f*** is this and turn to another channel. That american show about american have to be in some way connected to reallity. So if you watch multiple american fictional shows and are just a bit bright you can put the peaces together and learn stuff about American. But if you are just a bit bright you know that their are alot more to learn and even I who have been in America one semester and have had American friends realise that I don’t fully comprehend USA. Also we watching other shows to like 60 minutes, Conan, Oprah etc..

Karmashock said:

Americans can make the same claim. Again, I think traveling to a nearby european country is no more enlightening then traveling to a different part of the US. There is just as much diversity in the US as their is in all of Europe.

As to traveling outside of europe... most americans visit mexico in their life... that's about the same distinction again... and as to studying abroad... we do that often as well... typically in Europe in fact.

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Sorry but does USA have three distinct religion areas catolic, protestant and ortodox? Does USA have over thirty official language? Does USA have large areas that are specific collectivistic and other that are specicly induvidualistic? And that is just some example. That yes USA have diversity but it’s far from the diversity that Europé has. Also if you talking about minority cultures Europé have them too. Also that Mexico cultural is mostly based on spanish culture even and therfore are very similare to American and European cultures compared to for example Thai culture.

Karmashock said:

Don't claim superiority. you haven't got it. You're no more informed or wise then we are... you've just got different blind spots.

We watch other countries when do interesting things.

The people of the world are not a monolithic group. They are a great collection of individual countries... and generally they don't know any more about each other then we do about them. That's the world.

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Well I don’t claim are superior just that I belive European know more about the rest of the world. It can be important. Because then a country does something ”very intresting” it can be good to have some basic knowledeg about that country. Also yes people could learn more about eachother but people from some countries are more intrested then others to learn about the world (in general of course).

GySgt said:

It is common knowledge that global populations tend to know more about America than we know about them. There are reasons.

1) One is that we appear to be the source of entertainment for the masses who reflect on their own culture as a little boring. Our culture is even more excisting. We offer Hollywood. Our movies are international smashes and every country lines up at their local theaters to see our films. Our musical bands and singers are international smashes (along with the British and Canadian entertainers.) Even Germany can't live without our garbage - David Hasselfoff.

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Partly wrong and partly right. Smal countries like Sweden almost need outside movies because it's hard to make good movies for so small markets. Also hollywood have alot of money to spend. But it's not the entire picture. It's also that you movies in many case are more simplistic and don't have that much context around them. Making it easy to sell them to diffrent cultures. But of course you also got smaller films with more complex stories and that also are more context based.

GySgt said:

2) Despite our critics tantrums, we are the only really dependable government in a crisis. No matter how long it takes or what our effort entails, we are always on the scene. No matter what the crisis, the world's first throught is to see what America is going to do. Which is also why we are so hated by our critics and enemies. It has always been true that our enemies have always hated us far more than we ever hated them.

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Ok to make things clear what I'm about to say doesn't mean that USA doesn't do anything or that the rest of the world always does more. The only thing I will like to say it's totally wrong to say that USA are dependent and always on the scene. Becuase you missed the genociced in Cambodai, you missed the genocide in Rwanda and you have missed out on alot of conflifct their you their needed. Also in areas of enviroment protection and aid you are lacking behind. And to make things perfectly clear againg this is not saying that USA is all bad and that you don't do good thing or that Europe is always better. Just that you praises of America went abit to far (nothing wrong to pride of you country so long as you don't go to far away from reallity.)

GySgt said:

3) We simply do not care about what is going on inside insignificant countries that mostly act as vacation spots for us. As the world lines up to cast their vote on whether or not they like America in weekly polls, we are flipping channels, and largely minding our own business.

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Well their are alot of problems about. Like for example then the s*** hits the fan in an insignificant country and USA decide to intervene and you don't have any knowledge about the conflict. Then can it be hard for you to do your duty as citizens and judge the actions of the goverment that can havepart in how you vote in the next election. Also you don't have always to be populare but it don't hurt to be diplomatic. Like for example it was no need for Bush to use the world crusade still he did it and upset alot of muslims for no good reason. Also as you know todays global market is more and more about image. And then it can be bad if American products have a bad image from the start because bad feeling of America.

Bergslagstroll said:

Well if American fiction show have people acting like Swedish people being shy, watching soccer instead of fotball, celebrate midsumer instead of thanskgiving, New York looked liked Stockholm and in your political show you hade a primeminister that had to negoiate with multiple partys. Then the avarage american would say what a f*** is this and turn to another channel. That american show about american have to be in some way connected to reallity. So if you watch multiple american fictional shows and are just a bit bright you can put the peaces together and learn stuff about American. But if you are just a bit bright you know that their are alot more to learn and even I who have been in America one semester and have had American friends realise that I don’t fully comprehend USA. Also we watching other shows to like 60 minutes, Conan, Oprah etc..

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America is not a lack of shyness, football, thanksgiving, having a president, etc.


That's just scene setting. I can do all of that stuff while at the same time completely distort the image of a country.



America is not it's f'ing tv shows! I can't believe the majority of this asinine argument honestly rests upon the belief that Europeans have learned america through television. LISTEN TO YOURSELVES! :lol:

It's pathetic. Come on.

Sorry but does USA have three distinct religion areas catolic, protestant and ortodox?

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Well yes... probably more... We also have muslim areas... mexican areas... chinese areas...

Does USA have over thirty official language?

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England, canada, the US, and Australia all speak english officially. Does that mean they're all the same? of course not. The language issue is largely irrelevant.

Does USA have large areas that are specific collectivistic and other that are specicly induvidualtic?

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Yes it does. There is far more political diversity in the US then there is in europe. We have some places where people actually live in communes. We have some places where people have REJECTED technology and live a privative life tilling the soil with animal driven plows. We have areas that are very libertarian... that don't believe in taxes or most of what the government does... we have other areas that are leftist as anything you'll find in europe.


You don't know america if you don't know how diverse we are.

Also if you talking about minority cultures Europé have them too. Also that Mexico cultural is mostly based on spanish culture even and therfore are very similare to American and European cultures compared to for example Thai culture.

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Oh my god... Mexican and spanish culture are not the same. they're not even that similar. Sure the mexicans are catholics and speak spanish but it's all different. Really, the Mexicans are better catholics then the Spanish have been in a long time.

Well I don’t claim are superior just that I belive European know more about the rest of the world. It can be important. Because then a country does something ”very intresting” it can be good to have some basic knowledeg about that country. Also yes people could learn more about eachother but some countries are more intrested then others to learn about the world.

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if you know more then you are better. But the thing is that you're not better. you are just as ignorant about Japanese politics as the average american. you are just as ignorant about South african politics as americans are.


All you know more then we do is what's going on in europe. Europe is not the world. It is just europe. And guess what... we know more about what is going on in the Americas then Europeans do... so it balances out.

Partly wrong and partly right. Smal countries like Sweden almost need outside movies because it's hard to make good movies for so small markets. Also hollywood have alot of money to spend. But it's not the entire picture. It's also that you movies in many case are more simplistic and don't have that much context around them. Making it easy to sell them to diffrent cultures. But of course you also got smaller films.

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Hollywood movies are a lot like opera.


Ever watch/listen to opera? America has some of the best Opera houses in the world... not as good as europe... but very good. Do you know what the plots are like in Opera? very simple... big simple stories about love, betral, lust, torment, etc.


Very simple stereotypical characters... Many hollywood movies are like that as well. Because it's not just about the story. it's about the action, it's about the special effects, it's about the music, it's about all the exciting places the movies taking you.


Opera is the same way in that opera isn't about the story but about the MUSIC.


I live in Los Angeles CA. I know what I'm talking about. I've grown up with the sons and daughters of famous actors, directors, and producers.

Ok to make things clear what I'm about to say doesn't mean that USA doesn't do anything or that the rest of the world always does more. The only thing I will like to say it's totally wrong to say that USA are dependent and always on the scene. Becuase you missed the genociced in Cambodai, you missed the genocide in Rwanda and you have missed out on alot of conflifct their you their needed.

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What was the UN's position on each of those events? And what would have happened if the UN yelled at us for going against their will?


You see, you have it backwards. It's stuff like that that made the US lose a lot of respect for the UN... and thus the world.

Also in areas of enviroment protection and aid you are lacking behind. And to make things perfectly clear againg this is not saying that USA is all bad and that you don't do good thing or that Europe is always better. Just that you praises of America went abit to far (nothing wrong to pride of you country so long as you don't go to far away from reallity.)

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The US actually has huge environmental programs many of which are more significant then what europe is doing. We just didn't sign kyoto... so what... it's a stupid bill anyway. We're doing more in other areas.


Our forests are already larger today then when we initially colonized the continent, we're paying for factories and power stations to use carbon scrubbers on their smoke stacks... we're investing billions and billions on research into alternative energy. Many of the companies that build these things are american.


Please... I won't accept your claim to moral superiority. So don't bother trying to take it. I won't let you have it.

Well their are alot of problems about. Like for example then the **** hits the fan in an insignificant country and USA decide to intervene and you don't have any knowledge about the conflict. Then can it be hard for you to do your duty as citizens and judge the actions of the goverment that can havepart in how you vote in the next election. Also you don't have always to be populare but it don't hurt to be diplomatic. Like for example it was no need for Bush to use the world crusade still he did it and upset alot of muslims for no good reason. Also as you know todays global market is more and more about image. And then it can be bad if American products have a bad image from the start because bad feeling of America.

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Using the word crusade was stupid but it was a mistake. That doesn't mean that europe doesn't make it's own stupid mistakes that America can see.


Don't assume that the US and Europe share all the same blind spots. Some things we don't see... and somethings YOU won't see. We're stronger together but you're no better then us alone then we are.

American's are way too narcissistic and selfish to even want to know about anyone else. This is very easy to prove. What happens (most of the time) when you are driving and signal a lane change? Very seldom do you get an altruistic response.

Billo_Really said:

America...contributes about 30 percent of the world's greenhouse gas emissions but comprises only 5 percent of the world's population.

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I question that figure and would further point out that co2 emissions are linked more strongly to GDP then population.

So what you're really saying is that five percent of the world is roughly 6 times more wealthy then the global average. not worth getting excited about.


Besides, do you really want to live in a place that uses 1/6th the energy we do? Have fun boiling water with sticks... going to sleep when the sun goes down... and never going more then 10 miles from your place of birth until the time you die.


Thank you, my ancestors didn't work hard to have their decendents throw it all away and go back to being privative. Anyone that wants to live the Amish lifestyle is welcome.


The first step would be to turn off your computer. :lol:


No offense... but that's how you get a number that low as the global average. So if you're really serious about it... turn off all the lights an never turn the on again... ever. Always wash everything by hand... never bath in anything but cold water... you know the drill... party like like it's 1555! :mrgreen:

Originally posted by Karmashock
Besides, do you really want to live in a place that uses 1/6th the energy we do? Have fun boiling water with sticks... going to sleep when the sun goes down... and never going more then 10 miles from your place of birth until the time you die.

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I was born in Long Beach. Do you think that would really be a hardship for me?

Billo_Really said:

I was born in Long Beach. Do you think that would really be a hardship for me?

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Yes I do. We might live in a great part of the world but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't live poorer lives if we never went any else. I've been to europe... I've been to asia... I've been to a few countries in the americas and I've been all over america.


I won't give that up. And I won't betray by children by damning them to such a poor existence. I believe in human progress. I will NOT regress. I will not go back.


Again, if this is what YOU believe, then you can't ride a car or even a bus. Bicycles are ok... you can't use electricity... your computer of course counts. To save on lamps and candles you should also go to sleep every day as the sun goes down. You can't heat water for anything but purifying it or making food. Your fuel for this should come from sticks and collected brush... you will get lung cancer from this in old age from the smoke...


that is how you'd have to live. Don't kid yourself. You do NOT want to live like that. Which means you're going to have to find a way to use all that energy.


If you want to live in a naturalistic commune there are plenty of them in California. Everyone shares, everyone grows food together, washes their clothes together... they're like hippy amish... it's there if you're willing to give up your fancy hardware.


But if I see you here in a week, then it means you weren't. And if you're not, then don't ask me to.

Not like I would if you did of course... I just wouldn't have to listen to you asking me to... I like my life... I like it a lot.

Originally posted by Karmashock
Yes I do. We might live in a great part of the world but that doesn't mean that we wouldn't live poorer lives if we never went any else. I've been to europe... I've been to asia... I've been to a few countries in the americas and I've been all over america.


I won't give that up. And I won't betray by children by damning them to such a poor existence. I believe in human progress. I will NOT regress. I will not go back.


Again, if this is what YOU believe, then you can't ride a car or even a bus. Bicycles are ok... you can't use electricity... your computer of course counts. To save on lamps and candles you should also go to sleep every day as the sun goes down. You can't heat water for anything but purifying it or making food. Your fuel for this should come from sticks and collected brush... you will get lung cancer from this in old age from the smoke...


that is how you'd have to live. Don't kid yourself. You do NOT want to live like that. Which means you're going to have to find a way to use all that energy.


If you want to live in a naturalistic commune there are plenty of them in California. Everyone shares, everyone grows food together, washes their clothes together... they're like hippy amish... it's there if you're willing to give up your fancy hardware.


But if I see you here in a week, then it means you weren't. And if you're not, then don't ask me to.

Not like I would if you did of course... I just wouldn't have to listen to you asking me to... I like my life... I like it a lot.

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You do know this area!

For me, I live in paradise. First traffic light up from the Jack-in-the-Box on PCH right at the end of Sunset Beach. The only bad thing in my life right now is f.u.c.k.i.n' rent! $1445/mo!

No, commune's are not my cup of tea.

Billo_Really said:

You do know this area!

For me, I live in paradise. First traffic light up from the Jack-in-the-Box on PCH right at the end of Sunset Beach. The only bad thing in my life right now is f.u.c.k.i.n' rent! $1445/mo!

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ah... I got a sweet deal on a condo... So the loan is murder... but at least I'm not pouring money down a rat hole...


I hate rent... I like LA so there's no reason not buy if you can afford it.

No, commune's are not my cup of tea.

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Don't blame you... they actually creep me out...

I could live like that if they were all family maybe... but never if they were anything less then lifelong friends BEFORE I joined.


and even then... I like my car... a lot... and I like my computer... a lot... I'm a 21st century guy. I'd be miserable in anything less.

Maximus Zeebra said:

Well, you are one of the people on this forum I do respect and whos way of debating I do respect, but in some cases IN MY opinion, you also sometimes draw to the bashing conclution too fast.

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Thank you and fair enough. I will observe my own behaviors. All I ask is that you do the same. Occasional honest self-evaluation can be helpful.

In my opinion I never bash, just try to debate, sometimes critisize and some times just point out stuff or ask a question.

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And sometimes people are too quick to call out the 'bashing' card on you. Yet, try this: take a couple of your posts that strongly criticize America or Americans, and change the words to EU or Europeans. I think that you'll find, if you're honest with yourself, that, at times, your comments are quite derogatory. When enough of this occurs, others expect it.

Maximus Zeebra said:

SuSE is more automatic type of distro, right? I tried it many years ago, but not recently. You tried any other distroes? Why didnt you choose any of those?

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Yes, SuSE is an 'easier' Linux distro. I'm more of a hardware guy (I build computers and networks as a hobby) then a software guy, so I wanted to use a more user-friendly Linux flavor. And actually I misspoke. I use Mandrake, now...an even 'easier' distro. I've tried Debian, the aforementioned SuSE, an old Corel version, and Red Hat. Settled on Mandrake because of it's ease of installation and the fact that it was the only one that supported MOST of my hardware. That is my biggest issue with Linux; hardware support.