Appeasement????????

one time I wrote that we need to get out of Iraq, and stop creating terrorists.
I said that we need to sit down with people and solve problems. In my mind, I considered this to be progressive and good. The reaction from the Far Right was a bit surprising. Appeasement, Giving into the enemy. etc. etc.

I was always taught that making peace was intelligent, and allowed for markets where our products could be purchased.

We are not involved in a war on terrorism, but rather a war of terrorism.
El Quaida attack us on 911. then we attacked Afghanistan and Iraq.
I supported attack by the coalition forces in Afghanistan. The Taliban were allowing El Quaida to have training basis, and I believed this.

the war in Iraq was totally Bogus.

One of the things that we fear most is for a terrorist to get a hold of an Atomic weapon, and set it off in LA,or Sf, etc etc. what would yu do to prevent an Atomic Weapon being set off in Los Angelos, California, or Houston, Texas. would yu talk to an enemy or just let millions of Americans die?

No we real Americans would never want to appease the terrorists. We all know that problem solving would make us weak, that is appeasement.
Better to let LA or Houston die in a mushroom cloud than talk and solve problems.

I love how the Bush crowd has the audacity to respond to critics of the Iraq war by essentially branding them as appeasers. As though the invasion (and continued occupation) of Iraq wasn't the best possible gift Bush could have given the Iranian theocracy.

I admire you for your view point. And agree with you the war in Iraq was wrong, it wasn't part of the war in terror (it is now tho). The war in terror has been fought the wrong way, I have been saying this since I came here 2 this website 2 years ago.

You cannot defeat terrorism by bombs and bullets, it only serves them more when you fight hand to hand. That's what "right wingers" don't get. But dragon do not be under the illusion that Islamic militants will negiogate. They won't. God after all does not negiogate.

I would love to see and end to Islamic radicalism as well as any other form of religious radicalism. Talking to them or fighting them in convential warfare will not wipe them out.

GarzaUK said:

I admire you for your view point. And agree with you the war in Iraq was wrong, it wasn't part of the war in terror (it is now tho). The war in terror has been fought the wrong way, I have been saying this since I came here 2 this website 2 years ago.

You cannot defeat terrorism by bombs and bullets, it only serves them more when you fight hand to hand. That's what "right wingers" don't get. But dragon do not be under the illusion that Islamic militants will negiogate. They won't. God after all does not negiogate.

I would love to see and end to Islamic radicalism as well as any other form of religious radicalism. Talking to them or fighting them in convential warfare will not wipe them out.

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Love the sig - forgot all about him saying that one before. Macho classic.

This thread ties into many of what we've all discussed in other threads in that the only method of dealing with a fundie is to make them irrelevent.
How? Supporting the moderates and supporting them to power. This can never be done through guns ablaze or walking around the streets as a mindless killing machine or dropping bombs to nuke the entire place. This only creates further unrest and though you'd win the battle, you'd most certainly loose the war.
Today a solid majority of all Muslims believe that we are in IRaq for the oil - everything this administration has done has shown this to be true (give me another reason why we are in Iraq, AQ? please). We're stuck there now with no great solve all resolution (thank you W for ****ing this one up too). There's no what could bes or what should bes or how we want this to turn out anymore, the best would be that this doesn't get any bigger. The only resolve now is just simply to leave. You should've listened to your old man W; he is far the wiser.

Here's the problem. What do you say to an enemy whose goal is to unite the world under Islam?? And uses violence as a means to that end?? If dialogue is the way forward, what do you say to make them change their mind??

Although this war has been mishandled, misleading, and pretty much screwed after we unseated Saddam, without a plan for occupation, there is still a silver lining in this cloud of mistrust.
Setting up a stable, democratic state in the Middle East can go a long way in promoting all the rights of people in that region that we in the "west" take for granted. Womens rights, womens education, gay rights etc....
There has been many sacrifices made by American and Iraqi alike, and we owe it their sacrifice to make it a success, rather than having them die in vain. This is not only done militarily, but through many other steps as well. We walked into Iraq and took over, we owe it to them to leave it better than we found it, don't you think??

WI Crippler said:

Here's the problem. What do you say to an enemy whose goal is to unite the world under Islam?? And uses violence as a means to that end?? If dialogue is the way forward, what do you say to make them change their mind??

Although this war has been mishandled, misleading, and pretty much screwed after we unseated Saddam, without a plan for occupation, there is still a silver lining in this cloud of mistrust.
Setting up a stable, democratic state in the Middle East can go a long way in promoting all the rights of people in that region that we in the "west" take for granted. Womens rights, womens education, gay rights etc....
There has been many sacrifices made by American and Iraqi alike, and we owe it their sacrifice to make it a success, rather than having them die in vain. This is not only done militarily, but through many other steps as well. We walked into Iraq and took over, we owe it to them to leave it better than we found it, don't you think??

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The idea of a Western-style liberal democracy in the heart of the Middle East, when Islam or the ME in general is socially nowhere near ready for that leap up strikes to me a naivity at the highest level.
It was never going to happen. Islam has yet to have its Univeral Sufferage, it has yet to break free from the laws of their holy book.
How can you expect the ME to acheive the advancements in 5 years that we took not decades but centuries to fight for.
For god's sake women and homosexuals still don't have equal rights in the Western world yet.

GarzaUK said:

The idea of a Western-style liberal democracy in the heart of the Middle East, when Islam or the ME in general is socially nowhere near ready for that leap up strikes to me a naivity at the highest level.
It was never going to happen. Islam has yet to have its Univeral Sufferage, it has yet to break free from the laws of their holy book.
How can you expect the ME to acheive the advancements in 5 years that we took not decades but centuries to fight for.
For god's sake women and homosexuals still don't have equal rights in the Western world yet.

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I never claimed that we could do in 5 years what has taken decades for the western world. But we can offer the process that will help them go in the right direction. It is ultimatly up to them, but we can't just quit on them at the lowest point.

And given a choice, I think women and homosexuals would probably rather live what inequalities we still may have in our societies, and have a voice for their needs, rather than live in the Middle East.

WI Crippler said:

I never claimed that we could do in 5 years what has taken decades for the western world. But we can offer the process that will help them go in the right direction. It is ultimatly up to them, but we can't just quit on them at the lowest point.

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But they are not ready to take that step that's what I'm trying to tell you. You can make them take the step, they have to do it on their own steam. And that is why the mission in Iraq will be a failure. The only hope we have now is stopping Iraq and the ME collapsing. That's why I don't want a pull out.

WI Crippler said:

And given a choice, I think women and homosexuals would probably rather live what inequalities we still may have in our societies, and have a voice for their needs, rather than live in the Middle East.

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Of course I didn't imply that they would be better off in the ME. The point is our society is not perfect yet, so who are WE to tell others how their society should be, if we can't fix ours? One could call that arrogance.

But they are not ready to take that step that's what I'm trying to tell you. You can make them take the step, they have to do it on their own steam. And that is why the mission in Iraq will be a failure. The only hope we have now is stopping Iraq and the ME collapsing. That's why I don't want a pull out.

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So what do we do?? Allow governments in the region to continue to support terrorism, and have them gain more monetary backing to launch more attacks against America like radical Islam has been doing for the better part of the last 25 years?? No, the time has to be now. We cannot stand idly by and allow this to fester. I won't disagree our tactics should be different, but inaction would be far worse.
Iraq wasn't a state sponsor of terrorism, but as far as what we are involved in right now, it is our chance to tug the ME in the direction that allows for democracy. Giving up on them now only makes things worse, and I think we agree on that.

Of course I didn't imply that they would be better off in the ME. The point is our society is not perfect yet, so who are WE to tell others how their society should be, if we can't fix ours? One could call that arrogance.

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No society is perfect. And we do things to fix our societies. I don't know why you say we can't fix them. In America its called amendments. Women couldn't vote, now they can. Blacks were unequal in our country, now they can **** in the same bathroom with whites. Our societies do fix themselves over time. There are no overnight miracles that happen( especially involving government), and everything important that has ever happened, was earned not given. Other societies should have the ability to fix themselves, and that is what we can offer.