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Oh, please. Like the "very conservative" posters are angels.
I love how you "very liberal" people believe you're better than everyone else... Classy people.
In what alternate universe is Hatuey claiming you don't have the right to hold your opinions? You have the right to hold your opinions; Hatuey has the right to tell you that you're wrong.
Hang around a bit and see why...
Oh, please. Like the "very conservative" posters are angels.
This doesn't make any sense.
Come on SMTA, are you going to deny that the anti-war movement in America didn't prolong America's involvement in the Vietnam war ?
And Jane Fonda like the "New Left" weren't against the Vietnam war. They were against the United States winning in Vietnam. Jane Fonda, Tom Hayden, the SDS, Weather Underground, Communist Party USA were all on the side of North Vietnam, they wanted the communist to win that war.
Yeah yeah yeah, I know names like "Franco" and "Park" too... by the way, what great things did they do, what was their worldwide impact? Come on now, jump in any time... they were not obscure... why? Maybe some particularly dog-eared section of the Zinn half-history, that being the half being for the most part inaccurate?This democracy?
Park Chung-hee - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
No, this [now ] democracy...as, if I remember correctly, I put it. South Korea - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Yep... sounds just like a democracy we helped "rebuild". Well...one has to wonder aloud, "Is South Korea a democracy now... or not?"
Yes...no? Yes it is.
What about its neighbor to the North, huh? Better or worse? The one the US didn't back. On average a foot shorter than their southern cousins. I guess with a socialist mentality, perhaps its better to be smaller, thinner, less healthy, tortured or dead, is it?
Who said we installed them? We backed dictators. Here's a famous one:
Francisco Franco - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Franco was around before we ever started backing Europeans...so, what exactly is your point? Does your side even really have one? You cake and eat it, too, folks. How is it that, in dealing with the world as we find it, we, the US, always end up being the bad guys? You have some better way perhaps? No, liberals have a silly utopian vision that is, well, one of the more juvenile, yet extremely dangerous, views of the world.
The same thing we wanted in the Philippines by supporting the Aquinos - pro-US governments that wouldn't have an issue selling cheap resources to the US. Again, the Cold War was about money. The Russians didn't care about "freedom" either. They cared about trade and pro-USSR governments even if it came at the cost of millions dying. :shrug:
Know any government or country that is not pro-itself do you? Where are all these angels in power that you are dreaming of, eh? Would not last very long. Most get over such youthful visions after middle school, especially if they get some solid history instruction in high school...but then some revert to such silliness in college, where taught to view America from a one sided, left leaning, rah! rah! plodding obliviousness to the actualities of a real, not a dreamed of, world.
How is the Philippines doing, anyhow? Anything like North Korea? Have they prospered at all with the evil influence of the US constantly over their shoulder?
I already have. Your nearly illiterate understanding of cold war politics is shinning through. Now, I know names like "Franco" and "Park" sound "obscure" to somebody who has never even taken a course in basic Cold War politics, but it's really hard to argue that "Vietnamese freedom" was important when we couldn't have cared less about the other 100-300 million people living under US backed dictatorships. Again, that you don't know them - doesn't mean they weren't there. Then again, I can't blame you for not knowing them. You actually believe the Cold War was about morality.
Pretty much. Can you name some of the US backed dictators from the same period? I can: Mobutu, Barre, Banda, Eyadema, Boigny, El-Sadat, Smith, Selassie, Tubman, Franco, Oliviera, Osorio, Duvalier. That's just off the top of my head. The premise that we "cared" about the "freedom" of the Vietnamese people is absolutely ignorant. We cared about them having a pro-US government willing to sell off its country to the biggest game in town. We didn't care about them being free. To claim the opposite in the face of the evidence available is ridiculous. We supported dictators. We allowed them to massacre their own people as long as US companies had access to resources.
Navy Pride believes whatever the right wing hate mongers tell him, and he's not likely to believe any POW that says differently.
They wanted the communists to win all the wars, including the propaganda wars. I know of no conflict since Vietnam where the leftists sided with their own country.
Yeah yeah yeah, I know names like "Franco" and "Park" too... by the way, what great things did they do, what was their worldwide impact? Come on now, jump in any time... they were not obscure... why? Maybe some particularly dog-eared section of the Zinn half-history, that being the half being for the most part inaccurate?
My god, I sure hope such idiotic blindness that you seem to propose that all the rest of us should "see"... I hope it is not contagious. What do you not get about how many people died, were tortured, were "relocated" and "reeducated", enslaved by our opponents in this Cold War that you think was just some corporate game? You think that folks in South Korea would not have rather lived under the US umbrella of protection? You think Franco's Spain was worse than, well, I'll let you choose, which ones of the Soviet Union and its satellites would you have rather lived? Or maybe in Red China? To think there is even a comparison is, to be charitable, in the particularly misguided mumblings manner of a hoodwinked ideologue.
Sorry homie, you can't have it both ways. You can't claim you're pro-freedom and then back a dictatorship which does everything but support freedom. You can't say you "rebuilt" a democracy, after having supported a dictatorship. You can't even claim "well, our dictatorships weren't as bad" and then say that others were. You can't play victim and say "Well! They did it too!"
So, your weasel like attitude about the Cold War aside, my point is basically this: Both the US and the USSR were camps of economic influence. Nothing more nothing less. Both benefited by supporting dictatorships at the cost of millions of people enslaved by either pro-USSR or pro-US dictatorships. The entire Cold War, right vs. wrong mentality is dependent on which side of the field you're on. The rest of us see it as being about two powers seeking to benefit economically from other nations and not giving one ounce of a **** about "freedoms". :shrug:
You apparently were thinking that the US could only support benevolent dictators during the Cold War while the communists could support anyone they chose.
Hatuey said:The Russians didn't care about "freedom" either. They cared about trade and pro-USSR governments even if it came at the cost of millions dying.
She's a treasonous whore. I hope I out liver her sorry ass, so I can piss on her grave.
I don't expect people who are Communist sympathizers to see anything wrong with her conduct.
Care to explain since the Big Mac didn't come out until 68.
That's all I thought about when eating Lima Beans and Mother ##### for 13 months, eating a Big Mac.
So you're saying those POWs are lying? Ok. You have a right to that opinion.
But when somebody comes out with a story naming particular POWs being supposedly ratted out by Fonda, and those very POWs say it never happened, I tend to believe them. Feel free to continue calling them liars, though. You have that right.
How about all those amnestees? And Carter only pretends to be a good man, apparently fools some, not most.
I think you just don't understand people who may be a bit more clever than you. No need for anybody to be a hater of this side for that, tho.
If she had stayed home and protested nobody would still be giving her crap about it.
I think if he had not shot his mouth off slighting other, on the other side, presidents...yeah, I used to think he was a nice guy, down deep too...I think Carter was a good man (senile now though) When it came to being the president he was clueless just like Obama.
If your best response to my statements was "that's silly" and some question about why I didn't mention other presidents, of course we won't be seeing eye to eye. I didn't mention FDR, Turman or LBJ because with the exception of LBJ, Truman and FDR had little to do with the military side of the Vietnam war. They kept us removed from that theater and let the French solve their own mess. When the French ****ed off like surrender monkeys, the US took an attitude of "we can't let communism make money off these guys!" - The US' relations with former European colonies has been one of economic interest. We have never cared about the freedom of people in those countries as long as we can make a buck off them.
I'm perfectly fine with that. It made my country great. Just don't try to sell the bull**** that we honestly gave a **** about a few 3rd world peasants.
Oh.
**** this, I'm out of here.
I think if he had not shot his mouth off slighting other, on the other side, presidents...yeah, I used to think he was a nice guy, down deep too...
Then I saw his taking of big contributions to his library [ and really, who knows what else, if anything?] from somewhat radical Muslims and then, wonder of wonders, all of a sudden starts slamming the Israelies... the Israelis have their bad side, we all do, but Carter has only become rather meaner and more and more nasty from my distillation of the the guy.
There was a time when EX presidents kept their mouth shut about the job the guy who took their job.............Have you ever heard GWB criticize Obama? Common courtesy.......Carter put that tradition aside big time and all Obama does is blame everything bad on Bush.
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