Denial works great for a lot of people...
Actually "control" is a prevalent trait in addicts. Alcoholics and addicts constantly have to control their environments as much as possible in order to be enabled. Alcoholics and addicts teach people in their lives how to act, react, and support their dependencies. It's just part of their survival tactics.
And this brings us to another form of addiction not yet talked about in this forum. It's called "Codependency".
Textbook Definition: Codependent relationships are a type of dysfunctional helping relationship where one person supports or enables another person's addiction, poor mental health, immaturity, irresponsibility, or under-achievement.
Personally, I'd almost rather be a drunk or junkie. Codependents have to suffer without self-medicating. Feeling like life is totally ****ed up while being sober - sucks.
Okaaaaay.
You have never met either of these people and you automatically assume his ex-girlfriend was right?
Have you even been to an AA meeting? If you haven't, then you have NO IDEA what goes on.
I went to CA meetings (cocaine annonymous - a branch of AA, exact same format, similar 12 steps). All they were to me was buddy buddy hug sessions. Most of the meetings were as follows. About 10-20 minutes to blather about the last meeting or 'events' coming up. Then some chit chat about addiction for 10 minutes. Then often someone would come up and spend 20 minutes talking about his/her 'war stories' of what he/she has gone through (like we have all not been their ourselves), then they would have a break, then they would give out the pins (for numbers of days clean), then they would spend a ridiculous amount of time talking about the upcoming CA event and how much they need volunteers. It's just a love in. How the hell does that deal with the underlying causes of our addictions?
Now, I will say, once in a while they would break into small groups and people would talk more in depth about their problems...that I thought was helpful. But it was only once in a while that they would do that.
Yes, if you want 'love and support' (yeah - like it's real love) and people to tell you how swell you are even though you are probably a thief or a mooch because that is the only way you can afford to feed your habit...then that is the place to go.
Me? I want a place where people are supportive but aren't smiling all the time and telling you you are great and a good person. Most crack addicts are not good people. They could become good people. But most are either neglecting their responsibilities or are performing illegal acts to feed their habit; people that would steal from their mother to feed their addiction - these are not good people (though again - they still could become good people).
I want the truth. I want the blunt truth from people that care but are not blind.
And in the end - the only place I could find that was from a mirror.
IMO, AA/CA are just love ins for starry eyed, weak addicts who cannot/will not quit on their own...all funded by the church to try and get more people into the God Club.
If they work for you - fine. But please ask yourself, how can you say you have truly quit if you still need these meetings to keep clean. You have traded one addiction for another (granted, one is FAR better then the other).
You will never truly be free of your habit until you can deal with it on your own. And I believe that the vast majority of people can do that but - like anything truly worthwhile - it is not easy.
And there is the problem. Most addicts want the easy way out (that is usually why they are addicts), and intensive, self-reflection is NOT the easy way out.
But it is - IMO - the only way to truly get out forever.
Well you cannot say that anymore because I did (although technically we have not 'met').
I was doing crack (a lot of it), had lots of money, my health was okay, no dependants and in no legal trouble whatsoever and I quit completely on my own.
I wanted to quit from the first time I tried it. One day I finally got tired of it and realized that it was a bridge to nowhere. Plus, the dot.com crash had started and I thought it wise to cut back on such an expensive 'hobby' while my investments were under duress.
And I have known several people that have quit simply because they were fed up with the lifestyle - not because of legal or health issues.
Also, those that I did know that quit because they 'had' to usually went back on it because addictikn is not because of boredom or rebellion, it's because of pain and suffering that an addict is trying to escape from. Just because a court orders you to quit - that does nothing to help the underlying cause of the addiction. In fact, it probably enhances it.
IMO, in most cases, the ONLY way for an addict to truly kick their addiction (whatever it is) is to want to kick it badly enough - not for others to try and force him/her to kick it.
And please try and remember - and I mean no offense - but just because because you supposedly counselled addicts, that does not mean for one second you understand them or know what they feel or why they do it.
Only addicts can know what they are going through - just as only someone that has given birth to a child can really know what it is like to go through...you have to experience it directly.
Oh great...some know-it-all counsellor who just because he makes money off of other people's misery and apparently thinks he understands it all.
Gee like I have not run into this type before...not.
Having dealt with you before I will not waste my time trying to convince you of anything...the effort would be wasted.
What I will say is that if you need something external to stop you from using again, then that external thing IS a crutch. To say it is not is just counselling gobbledegook that your types use so that those you 'help' feel good about these crutches they use.
And yes, people do quit. If you have not used for 12 years, then you have quit for the 12 years...by the very definition of quit. Yes, you are still an addict...but you have quit. But like anything you quit, you can always start doing it again. Until you die, nothing you quit is forever.
And, once again, if you have never been addicted to the 'drug' in question (booze, drugs, food, porn, whatever) then it is you who does not understand the subject.
It is the height of arrogance and ignorance to have never done something and then to turn around and tell someone who has done that thing that you know better then they do what they are going through and that you know better then they do how to stop it.
hat's next? Assuming you are a man, are you going to tell women how you know better then they do what childbirth feels like?
Go back to your practice and make more money telling other people about things you have never experienced yourself pal.
We are done here as I am not wasting another minute on your know-it-all, arrogant nonsense.
Good day.
Has it occurred to you that I might k now what I'm talking about?
Let me explain it to you. You came in here with some holier than thou arrogance, based on your personal experience and tried to pass it off as truth. Firstly, I am far more arrogant than you, I'm better at it, and your personal experience in no way proves your position. You seem to believe that because your experience was terrible, that discounts AA as viable. THAT is the height of arrogance, but the problem with your arrogance is that it has no basis in logic. That's the difference between your arrogance and mine. Now, all you seem to be capable of doing is making invalid assumptions. And I will continue to demonstrate that they make no sense. Feel free to ignore my posts, but you can count on me NOT doing the same if you try to arrogantly present your experiences as FACT again.
There is that. A person I know got popped for a DUI a few years ago. He had to be assessed to see if he had a problem and needed treatment, or if it was a fluke and no treatment needed.Most of the "new recruits" are young and court ordered. Typical college age-- reckless mistake-- but brainwashed to believe "they have a disease" that is "lifelong!"
Talk about job security...:roll:
AA/NA do at least as much harm as they do "good."
My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.
Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.
AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).
I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:
AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.
They work together (generally), so it's partially their fault.It's not AA's fault the judicial system refers people there. Your irritation should be with the judicial system for even trying to refer addicts anywhere.
It seems you and some are trying to find something objectionable about it. In the grand scheme of things they are the least deserving of scathing criticism.
Anecdotes are often nice stories, but not evidence in a debate. They are proof of nothing as they are an example of "ONE" and as most rules have exceptions, an anecdote can be nothing but one of those exceptions. Unless the proposition includes "ALL" or "NONE" we have to accept the anecdote as nothing by a nice story. AA will never tell you they have a 100% success rate nor will they tell you that they are the ONLY path (they will tell you they are the BEST path).
So, my mere response is "that's nice".
I can't help but laugh at people who claim to have no addictions or shortcomings. I'm sorry, but everybody has something with which they struggle.Everybody is addicted to something. I'd be willing to bet you're addicted to the air in your car's tires.
They work together (generally), so it's partially their fault.
In my previous post (#109) I pointed out a local AA-like outfit that gets assigned by the court to asses people's "need" for treatment. They also get to do the treatment, and pretty nobody ever gets a pass, so yes, I'd say there's a conflict of interest.Is someone profitting? Corruption? Conflict of interest?
While it is true that many have been able to get clean and sober without AA, it has been my experience that those who most criticize and/or disrespect organizations like AA are those who most likely to suffer from addiction or codependency and/or are in serious danger of relapse. There is no more efficient liar in the world than an addict or codependent--efficient at lying to themselves. And others. It isn't they intentionally set out to lie. It is just the only way they can continue in their addiction in peace or justify their feelings and behavior that is controlled by codependency. And to hear others speak of what they are lying about to themselves or others is just too uncomfortable or offensive for some to tolerate. That, plus a few really bad groups that don't reflect the core values of the program, is why most reject the program.
But in my opinion alcoholism and the other addictions are a real mental, physical, and spiritual sickness and it truly is a family disease. Codependency is not chosen by any who suffer from it, but very few, if any, who are in close contact with the addict will not have negative impact on their own mental, spiritual, and sometimes physical well being.
A good AA group and sponsor knows this, understands this, and, for those who are willing to give it an honest chance, can help people regain control of their lives without the substance(s) or activities (such as gambling) that they are addicted to.
AA is not the crutch. The substance or activity they are addicted to is the crutch. Without it they don't feel comfortable or normal. AA can help people live productive lives without the crutch.
While I'm not religious, I will support any institution that helps people overcome addiction.
Alcohol is one of the worst addictions in this country, and it is something many suffer from. It leads to financial ruin. It kills thousands upon thousands. Why knock something that helps many? I personally know several success stories I could point at that show me AA works. I myself ha e been to meetings. Like I said, I'm not religious. But there was less religion there are more community.
My current girlfriend dragged me to an AA meeting tonight. To be honest, I've never heard so much BS in my entire life. Alcoholism a disease? *Scoff* In my opinion, it's very simple - don't drink and you won't become a drunken ***h***e. More specifically, ever heard of the "steering wheel" concept? Keep your hands on the wheel and don't turn into those convenience store parking lots. It's that simple.
Furthermore, these people (cult members - from my perspective) say that if you don't work the 12 steps, you will either die, go to jail or a mental institution. Guess what? I left AA in a huff over 20 years ago and still am alive, happy and free. Furthermore, all my old AA "friends" are either dead (most of them are dead - young or old at the time I knew them), in prison or in mental hospitals. I have News: AA does not work and is nothing more than a cult! And I'm living proof of that, being that I'm still around :lol: - if my niece or another family member ever has any problems with alcohol/drugs, the last thing I'm doing is sending them to AA.
AA - what a waste of time. I spent two or three years going to them stupid meetings, working the steps, serving on committees, sponsoring others - I found AA at 19 and left at 23 in disgust (haven't been back since until tonight).
I couldn't take it any longer: When it came my turn to share in the meeting, I said just about everything I just posted. You should have seen the looks on their faces. :lol::lol::lol:
AA - A Big thumbs down and screw those people.
It's apparent you missed one of the more important Traditions in AA, despite the years you claim you were involved in it.
They have no opinion on outside issues, including your experience with the program. As such, the only comments your likely to get will be from people who don't know any better, or don't have any experience with it, so I don't know how much ammunition your going to gather to throw back at your girlfriend.
Since your girlfriend thought you would benefit from such a program, I wish you well in dealing with whatever issue she thought you need help with.
I feel almost the exact same way and took issue with the "crutch" comment as well. The thing about being an addict is it makes you want to believe that you get it - "it" meaning everything about addiction. Unfortunately, everything is subjective and while it's fine to talk about your experiences (I appreciate anybody who is willing to admit to being or having been an addict) it's better to say "in my experience..." rather than something like "here's how it is..."
Like I said in my previous posts, there is no right and wrong. There is no cure. The vast, vast majority of addicts and alcoholics don't respond well to treatment. And the people who follow the most successful treatment plans, such as methadone maintenance for opiate addicts, are the most looked down upon. I am not an alcoholic but I have family members who are, and I've been to AA, and I can understand why somebody would not like it but we - and especially the addicts and former addicts - should not be slamming it.
In my previous post (#109) I pointed out a local AA-like outfit that gets assigned by the court to asses people's "need" for treatment. They also get to do the treatment, and pretty nobody ever gets a pass, so yes, I'd say there's a conflict of interest.
I will add that this court appointed status is the vast bulk of their business overall. They are legally classified as a non-profit, but in the real world they have to make enough of a "profit" to meet expanses, pay salaries (which is incentive enough to cause a conflict of interest, keeping oneself employed), and so on.
While it is true that many have been able to get clean and sober without AA, it has been my experience that those who most criticize and/or disrespect organizations like AA are those who most likely to suffer from addiction or codependency and/or are in serious danger of relapse. There is no more efficient liar in the world than an addict or codependent--efficient at lying to themselves. And others. It isn't they intentionally set out to lie. It is just the only way they can continue in their addiction in peace or justify their feelings and behavior that is controlled by codependency. And to hear others speak of what they are lying about to themselves or others is just too uncomfortable or offensive for some to tolerate. That, plus a few really bad groups that don't reflect the core values of the program, is why most reject the program.
But in my opinion alcoholism and the other addictions are a real mental, physical, and spiritual sickness and it truly is a family disease. Codependency is not chosen by any who suffer from it, but very few, if any, who are in close contact with the addict will not have negative impact on their own mental, spiritual, and sometimes physical well being.
A good AA group and sponsor knows this, understands this, and, for those who are willing to give it an honest chance, can help people regain control of their lives without the substance(s) or activities (such as gambling) that they are addicted to.
AA is not the crutch. The substance or activity they are addicted to is the crutch. Without it they don't feel comfortable or normal. AA can help people live productive lives without the crutch.
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