• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Air India flight bound for London crashes in northwestern India

Chomsky said:
This image was on Twitter:

Click to expand...
That whole building looks like concrete. That's why it's still standing I guess.

The fact the tail is intact is a good sign the recorders probably survived.
 
Chomsky said:
"Jumped-off the plane"? In midair?
Click to expand...

When it was about to crash or the moment it crashed? I know, it’s incredible and a miracle he was able to get off the plane.


Survivor of Air India crash jumped out of emergency exit, police say​


Ramesh Viswashkumar, the only known survivor out of the 242 people onboard an Air India plane that crashed in Ahmedabad on Thursday, had been sitting near an emergency exit of the London-bound flight and managed to jump out, police said.

Speaking from his hospital bed, the 40-year-old told Indian media that he was a British national and was travelling to Britain with his brother after visiting family in India.

"When I got up, there were bodies all around me. I was scared. I stood up and ran. There were pieces of the plane all around me. Someone grabbed hold of me and put me in an ambulance and brought me to the hospital," Viswashkumar told the Hindustan Times.

It was not clear whether Viswashkumar managed to jump out before the plane made impact.

Social media footage shown on Indian news channels showed a man in a bloodstained white t-shirt and dark pants limping on a street and being helped by a medic. The man had bruises on his face and a goatee beard, resembling photographs of Viswashkumar in hospital after the crash that were published by local media.

 
L88 said:
Yes or lost a significant amount of power suddenly.
Click to expand...

The survivor reports a loud noise 30 seconds into the flight, "and then the plane crashed".


Source:

Air India plane carrying 242 people crashes near Ahmedabad airport, 1 passenger reportedly survived

Footage posted to social media shortly after the crash and verified by NBC News shows plumes of thick, black smoke to the south of the airport.
www.nbcnews.com

Original source appears to be here:

(Hindustan Times) Passenger on seat 11A survived Air India crash, says trouble started 30 seconds into flight
 
The NTSB files are filled with pilots who after landing, raised their gear instead of the flaps. More prone in some Beechcraft Bonanzas due to the close proximity of the switches to one another. Thats why many pilots will not touch a thing configuration wise until clear of the RWY, To the contrary, I was taught by my old man (military aviator) to get the flaps up on rollout as soon as practical to keep her from wanting to fly again.
 
Very possible that the flaps were not set for takeoff. Once you get out of ground effect, the airplane will stall out and sink.
 
Allan said:
The new video out from an airport surveillance camera.

Click to expand...

Looks like the rate of accent abruptly stops at 0:30 or so, and besides initiating descent the plane gets sloppy.

At that point it looks like they had little chance.
 
Emlee said:
When it was about to crash or the moment it crashed? I know, it’s incredible and a miracle he was able to get off the plane.
Click to expand...

Chomsky said:
"Jumped-off the plane"? In midair?
Click to expand...

It would have to be after the crash. Due to presurization those doors can't be opened during flight.
 

Thanks for the link and additional info.

I have no idea what to make of this?
 
Allan said:
It would have to be after the crash. Due to presurization those doors can't be opened during flight.
Click to expand...

That's what I'm thinking.

How this guy avoided the conflagration is beyond me.
 
Chomsky said:
Looks like the rate of accent abruptly stops at 0:30 or so, and besides initiating descent the plane gets sloppy.

At that point it looks like they had little chance.
Click to expand...
Looks like they tried to take off with the flaps up. The 787 has a wingspan right at 200 feet. Once they got out of ground effect, they were on the back side of the lift/drag curve. The crash was inevitable at that point.
 
JMB1911A1 said:
Looks like they tried to take off with the flaps up. The 787 has a wingspan right at 200 feet. Once they got out of ground effect, they were on the back side of the lift/drag curve. The crash was inevitable at that point.
Click to expand...

If so, that would be an absolute gross failure.

At least we'll have to flight data and cockpit recordings.
 
Chomsky said:
If so, that would be an absolute gross failure.

At least we'll have to flight data and cockpit recordings.
Click to expand...
Yup. Ground effect reduces drag and increases lift. Until you exit it. An airplane leaving ground effect will
(1) require an increase in angle of attack to maintain the same lift coefficient,
(2) experience an increase in induced drag and thrust required,
(3) experience a decrease in stability and a nose up change in moment,
(4) produce a reduction in static source pressure and increase in indicated airspeed.

Looks to me that is exactly what happened here.
 

I have two concerns with the above:

1] I cannot adequately see the flaps position in the video.

2] The sole survivor reports hearing a loud 'bang', midflight.

However, your scenario seems possibly corroborative with what we see.

Thank's for sharing your insight!
 
I did an Aviation Safety Officer course back in 2002. Part of the course was going to a boneyard and figuring out why planes crashed from the evidence. Plus my 35+ year old aero degree.
 
JMB1911A1 said:
I did an Aviation Safety Officer course back in 2002. Part of the course was going to a boneyard and figuring out why planes crashed from the evidence. Plus my 35+ year old aero degree.
Click to expand...

I'm not dismissing your supposition. In fact, I very much appreciate your insight.

Back when I was considering getting a GA private, I subscribed to Flying Magazine. The crash forensics article on the back-page was my favorite part of each issue. It's a fascinating subject.
 
Thanks. I was just mentioning some of my relevant experience. This is an absolute tragedy.

If it was a flaps up takeoff, it is an absolute failure of CRM (Crew Resource Management). Unfortunately CRM, or more specifically, lack of CRM has been the cause of many aviation crashes over the years.

More info on this crash.

'Flaps up and wheels down': Aviation expert explains what went 'dangerously' wrong in Ahmedabad Air India crash

Raised flaps stopped the Boeing 787-8 from gaining altitude while the wheels reduced the speed of the aircraft, says aviation expert Jacob Philip
www.theweek.in
 
Good article that I think explains things.

The flaps weren't deployed and in the almost immediate realization they had a problem no one thought to put the wheels up.
 
Allan said:
It would have to be after the crash. Due to presurization those doors can't be opened during flight.
Click to expand...

Does that apply when the plane in only a few hundred feet in the air?
 
Allan said:
Good article that I think explains things.

The flaps weren't deployed and in the almost immediate realization they had a problem no one thought to put the wheels up.
Click to expand...
Honestly, once you are on the back side of the lift/drag curve, the only thing you can do is trade altitude for airspeed. And that doesn’t work at 200’.
 
I don’t know if there was a loss of power. You can hear engine noise in the video. It appears to be not properly configured for takeoff as the flaps retracted and landing gear doesn’t make sense. It looked as though it simply wasn’t able to generate enough airspeed or power to climb and eventually stalled.
 
I know that happens but ive never heard of that in anything but small aircraft that dont have any system to prevent that from happening and as you said they are close together. Look at the cockpit not a slip of the hand kind of thing. Like I said who knows, humans are prone to do very silly and incomprehensible things from time to time
 
Allan said:
A plane without flaps will always get airborne due to the force of the thrust against the ground. Then it gets into trouble.
Click to expand...
An amateur analysis by a former fighter pilot on YouTube noted the likelihood that the aircraft wasn't using the full length of the runway. Looking at AMD on Google Maps, this seems immediately plausible, as RWY 23 doesn't have a taxiway that goes all the way to the piano keys. Using the full length of that runway requires a pilot to backtaxi for about a mile. That probably takes a lot of time and removes the field's only runway from operation for the entire maneuver. The YouTuber also noted that the aircraft took nearly the entire length of the runway to achieve a positive rate.

One can suspect a plausuble scenario might be that the aircraft was configured for a takeoff using the full 11,500' length of the runway. They pilots may have noticed the error, but only after V1. Committed to takeoff, they did the best they could. This is all speculation on my part, though.

Edit: watching the airport camera again, you can see a huge dust cloud get kicked up right after liftoff. This lends further support to an incorrect configuration. No way should they be that low when they run out of pavement. Google also tells me the short-field performance of this variant isn’t the best. While it can operate from strips as short as 6,000 feet, a long-haul flight like AMD-LHR may require 8,000' or more. Previous replays of the same route show some backtaxi activity, but not the full 11.5K feet.

Edit 2: temps were around 110 degrees, bumping field density altitude to about 3000 feet. Pilot (who is apparently also an active 787 driver) doesn’t think flaps were deployed at all.
 
Last edited:
Allan said:
It would have to be after the crash. Due to presurization those doors can't be opened during flight.
Click to expand...
I heard on the radio that the plane ruptured before exploding and dumped a few dozen people out.

Unconfirmed, but I will go with it, as nobody inside that fuselage had a chance once it came to a stop.
 
A photo taken and transmitted just before takeoff shows a family that was relocating to London.

Dr. Komi Vyas, Dr. Prateek Joshi and their three children.

 
You must log in or register to reply here.