Ironside said:Why did we invade Iraq?
Want a REAL Threat? North Korea!
Want to fight terror? Afghanistan, Syria, Iran, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Jordon (among others)!
Want a strategic location? Afghanistan's good... oops, no oil!
Want to liberate somebody? Cuba!
No, I am NOT suggesting war with these nations.
I'm suggesting that Iraq was the least of our worries, until Bush became President!
Saddam Hussein had Iraq in their own little world. He was a wicked evil dictator, no doubt. But a threat to NOBODY but Iraqis. His Air Force was buried in the desert. His Armor units depleted during Desert Storm, his chemical weapons (evidently) destroyed during the 90's. His "Elite" Republican Guard... well, we know about their will, no backbone.
Who we're fighting now are the Iraqi people and people (insurgents) from other countries that came there AFTER we invaded. Those are the SAME people that would have just as well gone into Afghanistan to fight us. In fact, after getting his camp destroyed in Afghanistan, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's militant group packed up and went to Iraq, where they commenced to beheading American citizens and Iraqis alike!
This is also the time that al-Zarqawi pledged alliance with Osama bin Laden and al Qaeda. al-Zarqawi and bin Laden hadn't been friends before this time. I guess maybe GW is more of a "uniter" (Bushism... the proper word being 'unifier') than I give him credit for being, huh? He's damn sure united the Islam extremist's, hasn't he?
icantoofly said:……………………………………………………………………
FACTS
The Islamic Movement in Kurdistan is an Iraqi political party.
Some more radical members joined the al-Queda aligned Ansar al-Islam.
These two sentences were excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Kurdistan
Ansar al-Islam is an Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war.
At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border.
It was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar.
These three sentences were excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
……………………………………………………………………
05/19/1996: Bin Laden leaves Sudan and returns to Afghanistan.
5 years, 3 months, 23 days later
09/11/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda perpetrates terrorist attack on USA.
The night of 9/11, the President broadcast to the nation that we will not distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them.
1 month, 9 days later.
10/20/2001: USA invades Afghanistan.
Did the USA wait to long?
2 months later.
12/20/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda establishes training base in Iraq.
1 year, 3 months later.
03/20/2003: USA invades Iraq including al Qaeda’s expanded training bases in northern Iraq.
Should the USA have waited longer?
…………………………………………………………………………..
The deadly consequences to us all of failure to exterminate malignancy (i.e., those who mass murder civilians and those who are their accomplices) are too horrible to contemplate much less endure!
SouthernDemocrat said:The worst dishonesty, is intellectual dishonesty.
Iraq was a minor player in global terrorism. Those terrorist camps in Northern Iraq were in Kurdish controlled territory.
SouthernDemocrat said:...
Iraq was a minor player in global terrorism. Those terrorist camps in Northern Iraq were in Kurdish controlled territory.
In April 1991 the United States, the United Kingdom, and France established a “safe haven” in Iraqi Kurdistan, in which Iraqi forces were barred from operating. Within a short time the Kurds had established autonomous rule, and two main Kurdish factions—the KDP in the north and the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan (PUK) in the south—contended with one another for control. This competition encouraged the Ba'thist regime to attempt to direct affairs in the Kurdish Autonomous Region by various means, including military force. The Iraqi military launched a successful attack against the Kurdish city of Arbil in 1996 and engaged in a consistent policy of ethnic cleansing in areas directly under its control—particularly in and around the oil-rich city of Karkuk—that were inhabited predominantly by Kurds and other minorities.
In 2001, with Bin Ladin's help they re-formed into an organization called Ansar al Islam. There are indications that by then the Iraqi regime tolerated and may even have helped Ansar al Islam against the common Kurdish enemy.54
But what I want to bring to your attention today is the potentially much more sinister nexus between Iraq and the al-Qaida terrorist network, a nexus that combines classic terrorist organizations and modern methods of murder. Iraq today harbors a deadly terrorist network headed by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi an associate and collaborator of Usama bin Laden and his al-Qaida lieutenants.
…
Now let me add one other fact. We asked a friendly security service to approach Baghdad about extraditing Zarqawi and providing information about him and his close associates. This service contacted Iraqi officials twice and we passed details that should have made it easy to find Zarqawi. The network remains in Baghdad. Zarqawi still remains at large, to come and go.
The Air Picture changed once more. Now the icons were streaming toward two ridges and a steep valley in far northeastern Iraq, right on the border with Iran. These were the camps of the Ansar al-Islam terrorists, where al Qaeda leader Abu Musab Zarqawi had trained disciples in the use of chemical and biological weapons. But this strike was more than just another TLAM [Tomahawk Land Attack Missle] bashing. Soon Special Forces and SMU [Special Mission Unit] operators leading Kurdish Peshmerga fighters, would be storming the camps, collecting evidence, taking prisoners, and killing all those who resisted.
FinnMacCool said:It's all about globalization. All the WMD evidence was all bullshit. We used that as a means of justification and Bush took advantage of the fact that after 9/11 so many people were supporting him.
The attacks on September 11 kill almost 3,000 in a series of hijacked airliner crashes into two U.S. landmarks: the World Trade Center in New York City, New York, and The Pentagon in Arlington, Virginia. A fourth plane crashes in Somerset County, Pennsylvania.
.............................................
The night of 9/11, the President broadcast to the nation that we will not distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them.
.............................................
The night of 9/20, the President Bush broadcast to the nation and to a joint session of the Congress that: our enemy is a radical network of terrorists, and every government that supports them; that it is civilization’s fight to punish this radical network; and that we ask every nation to join us in this fight.
.............................................
On 10/25, the pre-9/11 draft presidential directive on al Qaeda evolved into a new directive, National Security Presidential Directive 9, now titled "Defeating the Terrorist Threat to the United States." The directive would now extend to a global war on terrorism, not just on al Qaeda. It also incorporated the President's determination not to distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them. It included a determination to use military force if necessary to end al Qaeda's sanctuary in Afghanistan. The new directive -- formally signed on October 25, after the fighting in Afghanistan had already begun -- included new material followed by annexes discussing each targeted terrorist group. The old draft directive on al Qaeda became, in effect, the first annex. The United States would strive to eliminate all terrorist networks, dry up their financial support, and prevent them from acquiring weapons of mass destruction. The goal was the "elimination of terrorism as a threat to our way of life."
Wikipedia is your source for this???? :rofl :roflicantoofly said:……………………………………………………………………
FACTS
The Islamic Movement in Kurdistan is an Iraqi political party.
Some more radical members joined the al-Queda aligned Ansar al-Islam.
These two sentences were excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Kurdistan
Ansar al-Islam is an Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war.
At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border.
It was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar.
These three sentences were excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
……………………………………………………………………
05/19/1996: Bin Laden leaves Sudan and returns to Afghanistan.
5 years, 3 months, 23 days later
09/11/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda perpetrates terrorist attack on USA.
The night of 9/11, the President broadcast to the nation that we will not distinguish between terrorists and those who harbor them.
1 month, 9 days later.
10/20/2001: USA invades Afghanistan.
Did the USA wait to long?
2 months later.
12/20/2001: Osama’s al Qaeda establishes training base in Iraq.
1 year, 3 months later.
03/20/2003: USA invades Iraq including al Qaeda’s expanded training bases in northern Iraq.
Should the USA have waited longer?
…………………………………………………………………………..
The deadly consequences to us all of failure to exterminate malignancy (i.e., those who mass murder civilians and those who are their accomplices) are too horrible to contemplate much less endure!
I can go to the page he posted right now and EDIT it to say whatever I want. Anybody can!FinnMacCool said:Whats wrong with wikipedia?
kal-el said:Good question, why did we invade Iraq? I mean Saddam had no ties to al-Qeada, 9/11 wasn't his doing, nor was any Iraqi involved, he was no threat to us, or his neighbors, and of course, we didn't find any WMDs that we were so desperately searching for.
You pro-war nuts can try and justify this mistake all you want, but in the end, it will still be a mistake.
IMO,we should have sent those 160,000 troops into Afganistan to find Osama, instead of a measly 10,000. I'm sure we wouldn't have lost near as many lives and we would have fullfilled the public's prime objective- capturing Bin Laden.
scottyz said:I can go to the page he posted right now and EDIT it to say whatever I want. Anybody can!
There is a little message for you after the references..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Kurdistan
kal-el said:Like I said, you can use your suppossed "facts" to attempt to justify it. It won't change the fact that it was still wrong. And you wanna talk about global terrorism? Please, Bin Laden detested Saddam, and called him an infidel. Iraq had the least terror connections of any other Midlle Eastern nation.
Calm2Chaos said:Haven't had any bombings in the US since
kal-el said:No, but I hate to admit it, but it's inevitable. look at London. That was not unprovoked at all. People seem to think so, but they are part of the coalition that has occupied Iraq with at least 130,000 troops strong. You can't get into a fight, and expect to leave without any scratches or scrapes.
I just edited this one:icantoofly said:Change these sentences excerpted from Wikipedia if you can so that when I excerpt them again,I will be able to see your changes.
FACTS
The Islamic Movement in Kurdistan is an Iraqi political party.
Some more radical members joined the al-Queda aligned Ansar al-Islam.
These two sentences were excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Movement_in_Kurdistan
Ansar al-Islam is an Islamist group, promoting a radical interpretation of Islam and holy war.
At the beginning of the 2003 invasion of Iraq it controlled about a dozen villages and a range of peaks in northern Iraq on the Iranian border.
It was formed in December 2001 as a merger of Jund al-Islam (Soldiers of Islam), led by Abu Abdallah al-Shafi'i, and a splinter group from the Islamic Movement in Kurdistan led by Mullah Krekar.
These three sentences were excerpted from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ansar_al-Islam
The 'Iboggga booo doo do is an Iraqi political party. It is a Kurdish Sunni Islamist party based in the city of Halabjah in northern Iraq. The party was founded in the late 1980s by Sunni clerics opposed to the rule of Saddam Hussein. Its first leader was Shaykh Uthman Abd-Aziz. The group cooperated with Iran in the Iran-Iraq War. After the Gulf War the IMK became involved in the violent clashes for control of Iraqi Kurdistan. Despite these early tensions the IMK later participated in the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan government. It continued to receive support from Iran, and also Wahhabi groups in Saudi Arabia. The movement ruled Halabjah and Irbil, but did not impose strict Islamic law leading to internal divisions. SI edited a wikipeda page all by myself. The group did not join the Kurdish coalition in the 2005 Iraqi election running independently. It received over 60,000 votes (about 0.7%) and two seats in the transitional National Assembly of Iraq. After the elections, the party agreed to join the Kurdish alliance's National Assembly caucus.
Calm2Chaos said:I think without iraq we would have lost even more people since the last attacks.
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