According to Catholics, are non-Catholic followers of Christ actually Christian at all?

[Gozaburo]

The Divine and Natural Orders are hierarchical with each element limited to its own role or function and no element putting on airs of being anything other than what it is. As a social structure, the rights of the individual are subordinate to the rights of the family, which are subordinate to the village, the village to the city, the city to the province, the province to the Kingdom, and so on.

Sure I’d accept this. Even within liberal capitalism you have hierarchal structures. In fact, all structures and institutions are necessarily hierarchal.

Deviation from this order inevitably and invariably culminates in the collapse of the entire system, chaos, and anarchy. And that’s what liberalism is - it turns the Divine and Natural Orders on their head by placing the selfish desires of the individual (which have no inherent authority) at the top.

But this is where you kind of lose me because clearly individuals do not rule in a liberal society, institutions and bureaucracies do, which are structured and hierarchal.

It is true that liberalism has almost arbitrarily destroyed perennial hierarchies and often times replaced them with nothing, but I question whether or not that is an inevitable consequence of liberalism or if it’s just how it’s been applied.

I suppose to your point - if the radical conclusion of liberalism is a maximalist approach to individual freedom, then all institutions will eventually be dissolved. This makes even more sense if we look at the radical liberalism of the 20th century which advocated for what was essentially anarchy.

 

[Toggle Almendro]

It depends on the type of non-Catholic Xtianity.

Orthodox Xtianity is a legitimate form of non-Catholic Xtianity.

Protestantism, not so much.

 

[Napoleon]

Sure I’d accept this. Even within liberal capitalism you have hierarchal structures. In fact, all structures and institutions are necessarily hierarchal.



But this is where you kind of lose me because clearly individuals do not rule in a liberal society, institutions and bureaucracies do, which are structured and hierarchal.

It is true that liberalism has almost arbitrarily destroyed perennial hierarchies and often times replaced them with nothing, but I question whether or not that is an inevitable consequence of liberalism or if it’s just how it’s been applied.

I suppose to your point - if the radical conclusion of liberalism is a maximalist approach to individual freedom, then all institutions will eventually be dissolved. This makes even more sense if we look at the radical liberalism of the 20th century which advocated for what was essentially anarchy.

Good reflections. You are correct in your earlier statement that liberalism sprang from feudalism. It did so as a deeply misguided answer to the question of what to do if an element of the hierarchy neglected its duty, abused its position, or otherwise stepped out of its lane. The correct response is to reinforce the Divine and Natural Orders. We see this in the example of the Magna Carta - which reaffirmed the proper role and function of the King in the context of the broader hierarchy in response to the abuses of King John. Liberalism’s response is there are no lanes.

The existence of a diluted and imperfect hierarchy (which purports to champion the rights of the individual) at the beginning and middle stages of liberal democracy is really a nod to its own futility. Individualism, inevitably and invariably taken to its logical conclusion, is incapable of sustaining a society and certainly not civilization writ large. The individual, with his own selfish desires and small opinion, by himself is irrelevant and liberalism’s overvaluation of the individual is its undoing.

 

[Rumpelstil]

The Catholic Catechism says that one must be a member of the Catholic Church to be saved. Therefore, if the only true Christians are Catholics, then can it be said that all non-Catholic "Christians" aren't Christians at all?

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i dont know any Catholics who would doubt that the Protestants are Christians