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Abe Lincoln is a hypocrite

Re: Abe Lincoln is a hypocrit.

And I'm not sure the founding fathers would have agreed that states could seccede from the union after joining it, or at least after ratifying the constitution. The Constitution itself contains no provisions for allowing states to withdraw. Is there any authority that the founders had that intent?

Well The anti-federalists would have been likely to have supported this and many Jeffersonian republicans and even Alexander Hamilton, the "Tory without a king", expressed a view that if a power wasn't granted to the feds explicitly then they didn't have it.
 
Abraham Lincoln violated the constitution of the United States many times during his presidency, most notably during and following his unnecessary war of northern aggression. Is is also a violation of every war powers act ever written (including of course of the United States) to visit oppression, fire upon, invade, starve, harm, rape or kidnap any non-combatants, especially women and children, but not limited to them. Some may want to recall Sherman's march to the sea, conducted at the direction of Honest Abe.

The constitution neither required states to join the union nor prohibited them from disassociating themselves individually or collectively from it.

"And people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and to form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a ribht which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit." Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848

Lincoln, indeed the greatest scoundrel unhung, is a mythical creature force fed to each of us from the age of seven forward. And we continue the same process with school children every day of their lives.

Catfish
 
Abraham Lincoln violated the constitution of the United States many times during his presidency, most notably during and following his unnecessary war of northern aggression.

Now I've always found the phrase "war of northern aggression" to be ironic. If I recall correctly, the first shot was fired by South Carolina at Fort Sumter (Federal Property). And didn't the south try to invade the north three times? Or are we talking about another civil war? May I also ask what specific precepts of the constitution he violated?

Is is also a violation of every war powers act ever written (including of course of the United States) to visit oppression, fire upon, invade, starve, harm, rape or kidnap any non-combatants, especially women and children, but not limited to them. Some may want to recall Sherman's march to the sea, conducted at the direction of Honest Abe.

Sherman's march was intended to cripple the south by attacking their economy, a completely valid line of attack. Now I admit, I haven't studied the March as much as I'd like (I usually focus on the Army of the Potomic), but do you have any evidence from a reliable source that the crimes you list above happened at any time other than by the occasional soldier acting of his own discrestion. Furthermore, do you have any evidence any orders condoning such were given by Lincoln or anyone in his staff?

The constitution neither required states to join the union nor prohibited them from disassociating themselves individually or collectively from it.

However, it doesn't give any mechanism to let them leave the union. How does one constitutionally leave the union? And there's nothing in the founders documents that they considered the union divisible, so you're largely stating your own opinion here.

"And people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and to form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a ribht which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit." Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848

Pretty quote, do you have a source? And even if this quote is legitimite, so what? Did he at any point say that they have the right to leave without a fight? He said they have the right to rise up, he never said they had the right to win.
 
Now I've always found the phrase "war of northern aggression" to be ironic. If I recall correctly, the first shot was fired by South Carolina at Fort Sumter (Federal Property).

The decision to supply the Fort following the secession was actually a move to provoke the south into attacking the fort, thereby starting the war and giving the north the upper hand with the excuse that they were attacked first. The south really had no choice but to attack the fort, given the circumstances, and Lincoln was fully aware of this.

"And people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and to form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right - a ribht which we hope and believe is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people, that can, may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit." Abraham Lincoln, January 12, 1848

This is a contradiction in Lincoln's belief whereby he believes in the right of secession as laid out in the Declaration of Independence but sees the union of the North and South as absolutely necessary. He never reconciled these beliefs, but he's human, and many people believe many crazy and contradictory things.

The myth of Lincoln is just nationalist ideology. It has little to do with Lincoln himself.
 
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The decision to supply the Fort following the secession was actually a move to provoke the south into attacking the fort, thereby starting the war and giving the north the upper hand with the excuse that they were attacked first. The south really had no choice but to attack the fort, given the circumstances, and Lincoln was fully aware of this.


Why did they have to attack the fort? They could have not, tactically. It wasn't being used in any effective way to blockade the harbor, and the North was obviously in no position to invadethe south and get anywhere.



This is a contradiction in Lincoln's belief whereby he believes in the right of secession as laid out in the Declaration of Independence but sees the union of the North and South as absolutely necessary. He never reconciled these beliefs, but he's human, and many people believe many crazy and contradictory things.

The myth of Lincoln is just nationalist ideology. It has little to do with Lincoln himself.[/QUOTE]
 
Why did they have to attack the fort? They could have not, tactically. It wasn't being used in any effective way to blockade the harbor, and the North was obviously in no position to invadethe south and get anywhere.

On March 29, 1861 the Secretaries of War and the Navy were ordered to co-operate in preparing a relief expedition to move by sea on April 6. Governer Pickens of South Carolina was notified that an attempt would be made to supply Fort Sumter "with provisions only," and not with arms, and was advised by Lincoln that "if such an attempt be not resisted, no effort to throw in men, arms, or ammunition will be made without further notice, or [sic] in case of an attack upon the fort."

To Northern opinion such a relief expedition would seem innocent enough - bringing food to hungry men. But to the Confederacy it posed a double threat: force would be used if the attempt to provision the fort were resisted; and should it not be resisted, an indefinite occupation by Union forces could be expected, which would weaken the Confederate cause at home and sap its prestige abroad, where diplomatic recognition was so precious. Lincoln had now taken the burden of the dilemma from his own shoulders and forced it upon the Southerners. Now they must either attack the fort and accept the onus of striking the first blow, or face an indefinite and enervating occupation of Sumter by Anderson's soldiers. Could any supposedly sovereign government permit a foreign power to hold a fort dominating the trade of one of its few great harbors? As Professor James G. Randall has observed, the logic of secession demanded that the Confederates take the fort or that the Union abandon it.

Major Anderson refused a demand for prompt evacuation. Knowing that the Union relief fleet was approaching, the Confederates on the morning of April 12 began firing upon Sumter, and thus convicted themselves by an act of aggression. They had not only broken the Union, they had attacked it; and the reception of he deed at the North was everything that Lincoln could wish.

Lincoln's secretaries, Nicolay and Hay, observe in their monumental biography:

Abstractly it was enough that the Government was in the right. But to make the issue sure, he [Lincoln] determined that in addition the rebellion should be put in the wrong. . . . When he finally gave the order that the fleet should sail he was master of the situation . . . master if the rebels hesitated or repented, because they would thereby forfeit their prestige with the South; master if they persisted, for he would then command a united North.​

Nicolay, in his Outbreak of Rebellion, asserted his belief that it was Lincoln's carefully matured purpose to focre rebellion to put itself flagrantly and fatally in the wrong by attacking Fort Sumter. But there is even more intimate evidence of Lincoln's intention. On July 3 the newly appointed Senator from Illinois, Orville Browning (chosen to replace Douglas, who had just died), called upon Lincoln and held a conversation with him. Fortunately Browning kept a diary, and his entry for that evening reads:

He [Lincoln] told me that the very first thing placed in his hands after his inauguration was a letter from Majr. Anderson announcing the impossibility of defending or relieving Sumter. That he called the cabinet together and consulted Genl Scott - that Scott concurred with Anderson, and the cabinet, with the exception of P M Genl Blair were for evacuating the Fort, and all the troubles and anxieties of his life had not equalled those which intervened between this time and the fall of Sumter. He himself conceived the idea, and proposed sending supplies, without an attempt to reinforce [,] giving notice of the fact to Gov Pickens of S. C. The plan succeeded. They attacked Sumter - it fell, and thus, did more service than it otherwise could.

If we may trust Browning, who was one of Lincoln's friends, it was the Confederate attack and not the military success of the expedition that mattered most. In a letter to Gustavus Vasa Fox, the extraordinary naval officer who had led the relief attempt, Lincoln concluded, "You and I both anticipated that the cause of the country would be advanced by making the attempt to provision Fort Sumter, even if it should fail; and it is no small consolation now to feel that our anticipation is justified by the result."

This realistic bit of statecraft provides no reason for disparaging Lincoln, certainly not by those who hold that it was his legal and moral duty to defend the integrity of the Union by the most effective means at his command. The Confederate attack made it possible to picture the war as a defensive one; for some time it unified Northern sentiment.

The American Political Tradition
Hofstadter, Richard
pp. 120-122
 
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