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Polar Bum;1067529082 said:I also, have heard quite often the argument that "militia" refers to the National Guard and Military Reserves; yet neither the timeline or definitions under the Federal Codes support these statements.
Which takes us back to the intent of the writers of the constitution and the Amendment in question.....The Citizens.....every able bodied citizen 17-45 capable of bearing arms. You and I.
The Second Amendment to the Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Please focus on only the three words on bold. No thing else, no other part. What do they mean? Is their meaning clear, or open to interpretation?
Is a militia the people in general, or is it a state-sponsored organized and approved government body? Does the fact that "Militia" is capitalized lean toward an organized government body (as a formal name, essentially), or is that irrelevant? Maybe just grammatical peculiarities of the day.
If you believe their meaning is clear, why do many people have other definitions? Are they being dishonest and/or insincere?
Thoughts?
Let me offer a counter perspective. There are roughly 2.2 million military retirees right now. There are roughly 22 million former servicmembers (non-retirees). I cant cite the actual number but last time I saw there was something like 13 million former or retired law enforcement officers. That alone is approx 37 million armed citizens with command and tactical experience. There are approx 20 million competitive/sports shooters in the US.
I think you underestimate the capacity of law abiding armed citizens to organize in a relatively short order. I also think you overlook the fact that the US was formed and its independence won precisely because of the ability of the civilian soldier to form and fight.
Ive mentioned that before. In order for the US to reach the point where that kind of an order MIGHT be issued we would be long past Constitutionality. The reality is the military is sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution...not the whims and will of some tinhorn dictator...so no...I dont think the military would ever receive that order, nor execute it if someone was stupid enough to try and give it.You failed to include the will of professional military to fire on and kill their own friends, family and fellow citizens. Do they have the will?
Ive mentioned that before. In order for the US to reach the point where that kind of an order MIGHT be issued we would be long past Constitutionality. The reality is the military is sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution...not the whims and will of some tinhorn dictator...so no...I dont think the military would ever receive that order, nor execute it if someone was stupid enough to try and give it.
Somebody gave me this sentence one time:
"A good night's sleep, being necessary to the health of a body, the right of the people to keep and use beds, shall not be infringed."
Does that sentence mean I can only use a bed to sleep at night? Can I use it to take a nap? Can I just lay on it to watch TV?
*sigh*
well regulated means "in good working order"
Interesting choice of analogies. Kent State was not an instance where the military was called in to attack citizens. Kent State was an instance where college students and outside agitators had made deliberate and specific threats against citizens government buildings and private businesses. Those same agitators were not protesting peacefully...they were openly and aggressively attacking the entire local and county law enforcement contingency. When the Guard were called in their mission was to attempt to keep the peace. This was immediately after the protesters had burned the ROTC building on campus to the ground. At some point a small group of the Guardsmen present decided for whatever reason to open fire on a small group of students. They werent ordered to. Their actions were deemed illegal and unjustified.Don't you think we reached that point a century ago when RA troops fired on and killed several of the Brown Shoe Army protests in Washington DC?
Didn't we reach that point at Kent State? Guard troops instead of RA, but it happened.
Its almost like they say "History? Meh....who needs it..we'll make up our own"*sigh*
well regulated means "in good working order"
Now that you know this information this is what the second says.
in order for the gov to call up a militia, the right of ALL of the people to own and use guns can not be restricted.
the idea is to have a pool of armed citizens to call forth a militia from.
Interesting choice of analogies. Kent State was not an instance where the military was called in to attack citizens. Kent State was an instance where college students and outside agitators had made deliberate and specific threats against citizens government buildings and private businesses. Those same agitators were not protesting peacefully...they were openly and aggressively attacking the entire local and county law enforcement contingency. When the Guard were called in their mission was to attempt to keep the peace. This was immediately after the protesters had burned the ROTC building on campus to the ground. At some point a small group of the Guardsmen present decided for whatever reason to open fire on a small group of students. They werent ordered to. Their actions were deemed illegal and unjustified.
My thoughts.
I believe that it is intended to mean all the people, collectively and/or individually. That is my interpretation.
However, I do know people who believe it means the government's military, and I know these people personally and I also know them to be absolutely sincere in their beliefs. They claim that the words "well regulated" means government sponsored and approved, because, well, who else would 'regulate'?
I wholly disagree with them, but I do not question the sincerity of their position.
Thats not much of an answer to the relative comments abut your use of Kent State as an example.Rationalize it any way you need to VM, and don't even address the Brown Shoe Army event.
Your first post theorized and suggested that we have not reached the point where US troops fire on US civilians. I merely pointed out we reached that point decades ago. US troops will indeed fire on US civilians.
Militia is the term used for a defense force comprised of ordinary citizens and well regulated means trained and equipped. What is equally important, in the context of the 2A, is whether the people refers to only those people currently (or likely to be) engaged in militia activities.
The Second Amendment to the Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Please focus on only the three words on bold. No thing else, no other part. What do they mean? Is their meaning clear, or open to interpretation?
Is a militia the people in general, or is it a state-sponsored organized and approved government body? Does the fact that "Militia" is capitalized lean toward an organized government body (as a formal name, essentially), or is that irrelevant? Maybe just grammatical peculiarities of the day.
If you believe their meaning is clear, why do many people have other definitions? Are they being dishonest and/or insincere?
Thoughts?
During the War of 1812 there were a number of critical battles where the brunt of the fighting was borne by militia units instead of Army units. Dispatches from the field complimented the militiamen's "fine regulation"; i.e. they were praising their courage, skill at arms, and discipline under fire, NOT how well the government had controlled them!
The Second Amendment to the Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Please focus on only the three words on bold. No thing else, no other part. What do they mean? Is their meaning clear, or open to interpretation?
Is a militia the people in general, or is it a state-sponsored organized and approved government body? Does the fact that "Militia" is capitalized lean toward an organized government body (as a formal name, essentially), or is that irrelevant? Maybe just grammatical peculiarities of the day.
If you believe their meaning is clear, why do many people have other definitions? Are they being dishonest and/or insincere?
Thoughts?
The Second Amendment to the Constitution: "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Please focus on only the three words on bold. No thing else, no other part. What do they mean? Is their meaning clear, or open to interpretation?
Is a militia the people in general, or is it a state-sponsored organized and approved government body? Does the fact that "Militia" is capitalized lean toward an organized government body (as a formal name, essentially), or is that irrelevant? Maybe just grammatical peculiarities of the day.
If you believe their meaning is clear, why do many people have other definitions? Are they being dishonest and/or insincere?
Thoughts?
A well-regulated militia is a requirement for a healthy free state. The militia could be the last defense in case lets say the US military is destroyed. Again just saying.
The modern Army National Guard traces its origins to 13 December 1636, the day the Massachusetts Bay Colony's General Court passed an act calling for the creation of three regiments by organizing existing separate militia companies in the towns around Boston.[2] The creation of the militia regiments was caused by the perceived need to defend the Bay Colony against American Indians, as well as colonists and military members from other European countries who were operating in North America, including: the French in what is now Canada; the Spanish in what is now Florida, The Carolinas, and Georgia; and the Dutch in what was then New Netherland, which comprised what is now parts of New York, Connecticut, Rhode Island and Massachusetts.[3][4]
The General Court required that all able-bodied men between ages 16 and 60, except judges and clergy members, be considered members of the colony's militia, which was organized as the North, South, and East Regiments. Militia members were required to equip themselves, take part in regular training, and report to their units when called.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_US_Army_National_Guard
We already have a well regulated militia. It's called the National Guard.
However, I do know people who believe it means the government's military, and I know these people personally and I also know them to be absolutely sincere in their beliefs. They claim that the words "well regulated" means government sponsored and approved, because, well, who else would 'regulate'?
I wholly disagree with them, but I do not question the sincerity of their position.
In the usage of the times, 'regulated' did refer to training.
The first Act, passed May 2, 1792, provided for the authority of the president to call out the militias of the several states, "whenever the United States shall be invaded, or be in imminent danger of invasion from any foreign nation or Indian tribe".[3] The law also authorized the President to call the militias into Federal service "whenever the laws of the United States shall be opposed or the execution thereof obstructed, in any state, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the marshals by this act".[4] This provision likely referred to uprisings such as Shays' Rebellion...
The second Act, passed May 8, 1792, provided for the organization of the state militias. It conscripted every "free able-bodied white male citizen" between the ages of 18 and 45 into a local militia company. (This was later expanded to all males, regardless of race, between the ages of 18 and 54 in 1862.)
Militia members, referred to as "every citizen, so enrolled and notified", "...shall within six months thereafter, provide himself..." with a musket, bayonet and belt, two spare flints, a cartridge box with 24 bullets, and a knapsack. Men owning rifles were required to provide a powder horn, ¼ pound of gunpowder, 20 rifle balls, a shooting pouch, and a knapsack.[5] Some occupations were exempt, such as congressmen, stagecoach drivers, and ferryboatmen.
The militias were divided into "divisions, brigades, regiments, battalions, and companies" as the state legislatures would direct.[6] The provisions of the first Act governing the calling up of the militia by the president in case of invasion or obstruction to law enforcement were continued in the second act.[7] Court martial proceedings were authorized by the statute against militia members who disobeyed any orders or regulations.[8]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Acts_of_1792
States have State militias that are separate from the National Guard.
State defense forces (SDF; also known as state military, state guards, or state military reserves) in the United States are military units that operate under the sole authority of a state government; they are partially regulated by the National Guard Bureau but they are not a part of the Army National Guard of the United States.[1] State defense forces are authorized by state and federal law and are under the command of the governor of each state.
All state National Guard personnel (to include the National Guard of the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico and the territories of Guam and the Virgin Islands) can be federalized under the National Defense Act of 1933 with the creation of the National Guard of the United States. This provides the basis for integrating units and personnel of the Army National Guard into the U.S. Army and, since 1947, units and personnel of the Air National Guard into the U.S. Air Force.[2]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_defense_force
I'm talking about for citizens.
Yeah sure, any citizen can sign up for the National Guard.
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