and ergo, are just a religion, and not a people and have no ties Genetically to the Holy Land.
(the 'Zand' string and others)
Really?
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes
PNAS
(Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences)
""... A series of analyses was performed to address whether modern Jewish Y-chromosome diversity derives mainly from a common Middle Eastern source population or from admixture with neighboring non-Jewish populations during and after the Diaspora.
Despite their long-term residence in different countries and isolation from one another, most Jewish populations were Not significantly different from one another at the genetic level.
Admixture estimates suggested Low levels of European Y-chromosome gene flow into Ashkenazi and Roman Jewish communities.
A multidimensional scaling plot placed six of the seven Jewish populations in a relatively Tight cluster that was interspersed with Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations, including Palestinians and Syrians.
Pairwise differentiation tests further indicated that these Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations were not statistically different. The results support the hypothesis that the paternal gene pools of Jewish communities from Europe, North Africa, and the Middle East descended from a common Middle Eastern ancestral population, and suggest that most Jewish communities have remained relatively isolated from neighboring non-Jewish communities during and after the Diaspora....."
[....]
Evidence for Common Jewish Origins.
Several lines of evidence support the hypothesis that Diaspora Jews from Europe, Northwest Africa, and the Near East resemble each other more closely than they resemble their non-Jewish neighbors.
First, six of the seven Jewish populations analyzed here formed a relatively tight cluster in the MDS analysis (Fig. 2). The only exception was the Ethiopian Jews, who were affiliated more closely with non-Jewish Ethiopians and other North Africans. Our results are consistent with other studies of Ethiopian Jews based on a variety of markers (16, 23, 46). However, as in other studies where Ethiopian Jews exhibited markers that are characteristic of both African and Middle Eastern populations, they had Y-chromosome haplotypes (e.g., haplotypes Med and YAP+4S) that were common in other Jewish populations.
Second, despite their high degree of geographic dispersion, Jewish populations from Europe, North Africa, and the Near East were less diverged genetically from each other than any other group of populations in this study (Table 2). The statistically significant correlation between genetic and geographic distances in our non-Jewish populations from Europe, the Middle East, and North Africa is suggestive of spatial differentiation, whereas the lack of such a correlation for Jewish populations is more compatible with a model of recent dispersal and subsequent isolation during and after the Diaspora..""
[....]
Middle Eastern Affinities.
A Middle Eastern origin of the Jewish gene pool is generally assumed because of the detailed documentation of Jewish history and religion. There are not many genetic studies that have attempted to infer the genetic relationships among Diaspora Jews and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations. A number of earlier studies found evidence for Middle Eastern affinities of Jewish genes (4, 5, 7, 51); however, results have depended to a great extent on which loci were being compared, possibly because of the confounding effects of selection (4). Although the NRY tends to behave as a single genetic locus (52), the DNA results presented here are less likely to be biased by selective effects. The extremely close affinity of Jewish and non-Jewish Middle Eastern populations observed here (Tables 2 and 3) supports the hypothesis of a common Middle Eastern origin. Of the Middle Eastern populations included in this study, only the Syrian and Palestinian samples mapped within the central cluster of Jewish populations (Fig. 2)...."
again, above excerpted from the longer:
Jewish and Middle Eastern non-Jewish populations share a common pool of Y-chromosome biallelic haplotypes ? PNAS
Jeesh. The old Sammy Davis Jr canard.What ties did the African-American Sammy Davis Jnr have to the holy land and why did this change one morning when he woke up and decided that he would like to follow the Judaism religion?
Answered above.Did his ancestors live in the region?
Did his family live in the region?
Had he ever seen the holy land?
Becoming Jewish does not begin and end with conversion. It also requires embracing the history and culture of the Jewish peopleHe joined a religion which is exactly what Judaism is. It is not a 'people' since its members are limitless.
What a simplistic notion! :roflEverybody could convert and become a Jew tomorrow if they wanted.
If 'Jews' were a 'people' this would not be possible.
[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jew"]Jew - Wikipedia[/ame]A Jew (Hebrew: יְהוּדִי, Yehudi (sg.); יְהוּדִים, Yehudim (pl.); Ladino: ג׳ודיו, Djudio (sg.); ג׳ודיוס, Djudios (pl.); Yiddish: יִיד, Yid (sg.); יִידן, Yidn (pl.))[3] is a member of the Jewish people, an ethnoreligious group originating in the Israelites or Hebrews of the Ancient Near East. The Jewish people and the religion of Judaism are strongly interrelated, and converts to Judaism have been absorbed into the Jewish community throughout the millennia.
Despite the evident diversity displayed by the world's distinct Jewish populations, both culturally and physically, genetic studies have demonstrated most of these to be genetically related to one another, having ultimately originated from a common ancient Israelite population that underwent geographic branching and subsequent independent evolutions.[36]
What ties did the African-American Sammy Davis Jnr have to the holy land and why did this change one morning when he woke up and decided that he would like to follow the Judaism religion?
Did his ancestors live in the region?
Did his family live in the region?
Had he ever seen the holy land?
He joined a religion which is exactly what Judaism is. It is not a 'people' since its members are limitless. Everybody could convert and become a Jew tomorrow if they wanted. If 'Jews' were a 'people' this would not be possible.
Or Muslim! they too mutilate their sons genitalsAbout Sammy Davis Jr......
Whether or not he is Jewish can easily be cleared up. He should expose himself on national TV. If it is a helmet, and not an anteater, then at least part of him is Jewish. :mrgreen:
Jeesh. The old Sammy Davis Jr canard.
Jewish Law (halakhic) defines anyone who fully converts to Judaism as fully Jewish.
Answered above.
Becoming Jewish does not begin and end with conversion. It also requires embracing the history and culture of the Jewish people.
What a simplistic notion! :rofl
That's not how it works. This isn't The Church of What's Happening Now. It takes many years to convert to Judaism.
The yardsticks of genetics, culture, ethnicity, history, and religion do indeed verify that the Jewish people are a distinct people.
I even bolded the descriptive the Jewish people from Wikipedia just for you. Sociologists define a people as a group sharing many or all of these commonalities: origin, ancestery, history, religion, language, tradition, culture, foods, physical characteristics, biological inheritance.
It's not a difficult concept. The Kurdish people. The Flemish people. The Native American people. The Jewish people. etc.
Fine, then just explain exactly which commonalities from your list "origin, ancestery, history, religion, language, tradition, culture, foods, physical characteristics, biological inheritance" are shared between Jewish persons who live in Israel and whose direct ancestors have lived in the ME for 1000's of years and a Russian convert (or any other convert) whose ancestors have always lived in Europe, who has no Jewish relatives and who has never been to the ME
I even bolded the descriptive the Jewish people from Wikipedia just for you. Sociologists define a people as a group sharing many or all of these commonalities: origin, ancestery, history, religion, language, tradition, culture, foods, physical characteristics, biological inheritance.
It's not a difficult concept. The Kurdish people. The Flemish people. The Native American people. The Jewish people. etc.
The Jewish people have an ancestral and historical claim to that land, they aren't interlopers.
a **** about the Palistinians. In their own lands they tend to treat them like second-class scum in many cases.
As was noted, conversion to Judaism is a rare and lengthy process.What is simplistic is arguing that someone who is say Russian, has lived in Russia all his live, all his ancestors have lived in Russia, has never been to nor seen the Middle East, decides to convert to Judaism one day and now you are telling me he is a member of a 'people' who lived in the ME 1000's of years ago and he has a genetic link to these 'people' - which apparantly he did not possess prior to changing his religion :roll:
Given the persecution in their history, who could blame them for wanting to reclaim their ancestral homeland and have one country on the planet they could be sure wouldn't turn against them?
Correction. A UN Resolution according to the recomendations of the United Nations Special Committee on the Mandate (UNSCOM).I dont blame them for wanting one. I blame them for taking one off other people by force.
Correction. A UN Resolution according to the recomendations of the United Nations Special Committee on the Mandate (UNSCOM).
Judaism is an ethnicity.
Race is an obsolete social construct.
Most Israeli jews have no history in palestine before the 1950's.
The palestinians (or people that were to later become palestinians), including long inhabiting jews and all people of the land were the indigenous people of the land, and thus the natural gatekeepers of land rights.
As foreigners, the imigrating jews who were later to become israeli jews (I will call them zionists, and I do not believe this to be an emotive term in this context) were colonisers of land against the will of the vast majority fo the people of the land.
Thus my objection to the formation of the Israeli state has nothing to do with the concept of race at all, but to do with the right of indigenous peoples.
If it were German land, or even the land of any involved power, or if the people of the land had been gracious enough to offer the land, I would feel diferantly. But I do not accept the legitimacy of the imperial sovereignties who made the decision.
As was noted, conversion to Judaism is a rare and lengthy process.
I am Jewish. My familiy lived in Russia and Ukraine for centuries. I had a genetic analysis done some years ago to ascertain if I possessed the genetic mutations for such Jewish conditions as Tey Sachs etc. The genetics clearly showed a baseline haplotype that is the common denominator of all semitic people of ancient Middle East origin.
Tay-Sachs disease - Genetics Home ReferenceTay-Sachs disease is very rare in the general population. The genetic mutations that cause this disease are more common in people of Ashkenazi (eastern and central European) Jewish heritage than in those with other backgrounds.
Judaism is an ethnicity.
Race is an obsolete social construct.
Most Israeli jews have no history in palestine before the 1950's.
The palestinians (or people that were to later become palestinians), including long inhabiting jews and all people of the land were the indigenous people of the land, and thus the natural gatekeepers of land rights.
As foreigners, the imigrating jews who were later to become israeli jews (I will call them zionists, and I do not believe this to be an emotive term in this context) were colonisers of land against the will of the vast majority fo the people of the land.
Thus my objection to the formation of the Israeli state has nothing to do with the concept of race at all, but to do with the right of indigenous peoples.
If it were German land, or even the land of any involved power, or if the people of the land had been gracious enough to offer the land, I would feel diferantly. But I do not accept the legitimacy of the imperial sovereignties who made the decision.
Why pick on only the Jews? What is YOUR heritage? I bet you dollars to donuts I can pick on it too. :mrgreen:
But maybe you are right. Let's put everything back the way it was. No more Israel. NO more England. No more America. No more Mexico. Where do we go from here? Hey, lets all emigrate to Antarctica.... Nah, we can't do that either. We would be trampling the rights of the penguins. :mrgreen:
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?