You don't seem to understand what a tremendous burden those who are here illegally put on the education and healthcare systems. This is because you don't live in a border state. Easy for you to sit in Tennessee and indulge yourself in hyperbole.
What would "I" do?. I would do what my grand parents did. Work. Raise a family that works, owns businesses, graduates from college, serves our nations armed forces and instills its values to next generations.
If anyone wants to have a serious discussion, that's fine. But we just DO HAVE those millions of people who ARE here. If you really don't want them to get healthcare, then what is the option except we let human beings die for lack of care? If you don't want to educate the children of illegals, then what is the option for them when they grow up here? It's not working a job, or a job is FAR less likely, so what is the option if not crime?
You're right I don't live in a border state, but the problem is difficult and one liners and slogans aren't going to solve it. We rolled out a red carpet for them, thousands of employers provide them millions of jobs (nearly every roof in my neighborhood was replaced by a team of illegals), no one in government actually cares, the employers love it, and these people have families, and they need what we all need - food, education, lodging, healthcare.
Someone make a serious proposal and we can debate it. What can I say?
No I think you're being deliberatly wrong. The current bill does not address legal immigrants, which is why the video of Session stated in the first 20 seconds:Are you being deliberately wrong? The link was to debate on a bill that addresses LEGAL immigrants. What do you expect?
Sen. Jeff Sessions said:Sessions:
My amendment would simply say that if you are here illegally, did not enter legally, and you get a lawful status here in the United States, you then to not qualify for the Federal programs of Obamacare and Medicaid.
The perhaps you can explain why the INS release 60 thousand of them from jails into the population. Actually, you're 0 for 2, but nice projection there.And the Dream Act excludes convicted criminals, so that's wrong. You're O for 2 so far.
You'll need to provide a legit citation showing it did go negative.So why did illegal immigration go negative during the recession?
Now you start with the strawman - I never said I didn't like Pew. What I said was:OK, you don't like Pew. How about the Census: https://www.dhs.gov/sites/default/files/publications/ois_ill_pe_2011.pdf
Ockham said:Polls are a snapshot in time and many times the snapshot methodology isn't provided or is biased in it's questions.
When can I expect to see pictures of you eating dirt? There's a study saying it's good for you...If you've got other evidence, feel free to provide it, but burying your head in the sand and saying "I CAN'T HEAR YOU! NANANANANANANNA" isn't actually a legitimate argument.
I'm not offended at all. I'm just a person who tries to make decisions based on the best data and evidence available. If you have any actual evidence I'd love to see it.
That's why this thread is about eh laws that allowed them to be released. We have some bad laws/policies in place that need to be changed to stop allowing this kind of thing to happen. We have the opportunity to remove some "undesirables" from our society in the same manner that most nations do and we are failing to do so. The story highlighted one person, but the problem of released illegal immigrants committing additional crimes after their release is well documented and fairly frequent.
Just because the problem exists in other areas is NOT justification for allowing it this area. In the case of illegal immigrants, if they are here illegally, then the basic standard for dealing them is to send them back to their nation of origin ASAP. That's the MINIMUM that should happen. Just releasing them is STUPID, regardless of whether they have committed any other crimes or not. If you are here illegally and you get arrested for it, then you should be returned to your nation of origin as soon as you have been convicted of this crime.
Wrong. I would not trespass and take a job under the table and live like a hermit so as to no get caught and sent back.It's funny how many times I've asked this question and conservatives really don't want to give a direct answer. The question was what you'd do "in their shoes" sitting in Mexico or Guatemala or somewhere.
I get it - if you're any kind of decent father/son/husband, you'd do what the millions have done and walk across, take the jobs being offered, and give your family the best life you can possibly give them IN THE U.S. And you'd ignore immigration laws same way the employers do.
It's funny how many times I've asked this question and conservatives really don't want to give a direct answer. The question was what you'd do "in their shoes" sitting in Mexico or Guatemala or somewhere.
I get it - if you're any kind of decent father/son/husband, you'd do what the millions have done and walk across, take the jobs being offered, and give your family the best life you can possibly give them IN THE U.S. And you'd ignore immigration laws same way the employers do.
No I think you're being deliberatly wrong. The current bill does not address legal immigrants, which is why the video of Session stated in the first 20 seconds:
The perhaps you can explain why the INS release 60 thousand of them from jails into the population. Actually, you're 0 for 2, but nice projection there.
This initiative, announced on June 15, offers a two-year, renewable reprieve from deportation to unauthorized immigrants who are under the age of 31; entered the United States before age 16; have lived continuously in the country for at least five years; have not been convicted of a felony, a “significant” misdemeanor, or three other misdemeanors; and are currently in school, graduated from high school, earned a GED, or served in the military. Within this population of potential beneficiaries, however, are three distinct groups:
You'll need to provide a legit citation showing it did go negative.
Now you start with the strawman - I never said I didn't like Pew. What I said was:
But don't let that stop you from mis-characterizing my statement in order to forward your intellectually dishonest and biased point of view.
When can I expect to see pictures of you eating dirt? There's a study saying it's good for you...
Fact is I don't need evidence to show how ridiculous your positions are. If I needed evidence that would suggest you actually have a leg to stand on, which you don't. :coffeepap:
Which is still irrelevant, it's cute you think it's relevant though.You quoted the relevant part: "that if you are here illegally, did not enter legally, and you get a lawful status here in the United States, you then to not qualify for the Federal programs of Obamacare and Medicaid."
Not until the SCOTUS says it's Constitutional they won't.Not sure what to say. If a person gets lawful status, they are a legal resident. They're no longer an "illegal."
You didn't answer my question, though I'm not surprised.I don't know where you get that number, but what I know is the Dream Act excludes convicted criminals.
Ah, so Obama just released criminals back on the streets with no hope of ever becoming legal, just because we need what... more criminals to commit more crime? Are you listening to yourself?So those released from prisons aren't "Dreamers."
Which changes nothing I've already stated.I have provided two - Pew and the Census. Provide your own evidence if you don't think either is "legitimate."
Good glad you agree.Second you said that the methodology could be a problem. Fine, that's true enough
The best evidence available is you should eat dirt. Will you?It's very simple - I try to find the best evidence available.
When someone says "got it" they normally don't which is true in your case yet again, and it's always been official - it's never been UN-official. Please do try to keep up.OK, so you've made it official.
Not true, I've answered you directly on this and the answer is not to pay 5-10, 000 dollars to abandon my family and my country to jump the border. Good grief, there are more countries close to Mexico or Guatemala that have jobs that they can easily immigrate legally to and not pay a coyote.
OK, name one that even comes close to offering the same opportunities as the U.S. Honduras? Good choice with the highest murder rate in the world, controlled by the gangs. El Salvador is also good - the murder rate there is just 10 times that of the U.S.
well, ok so you do want a berlin wall. Great. And we'll have to search all truck traffic and the trunks of all cars and ships and boats, etc. Sounds doable to me, and then we can get illegal immigration to zero and isis isn't a threat.
Which is still irrelevant, it's cute you think it's relevant though.
Not until the SCOTUS says it's Constitutional they won't.
You didn't answer my question, though I'm not surprised.
Which changes nothing I've already stated.
The best evidence available is you should eat dirt. Will you?
Get a better argument and I'll provide some evidence.
When someone says "got it" they normally don't which is true in your case yet again, and it's always been official - it's never been UN-official. Please do try to keep up.
Costa Rica. Tons of Canadians retire there.
The terms he used were you are "here illegally, did not enter legally", and I have been giving you a break all throughout this thread.You quoted Sessions, the term he used is "lawful status" and now you're telling me he didn't mean "lawful status" at all but something else. Give me a break.
:lamo Does that nonsense actually work with anyone? The INS doesn't even know who these people are nor where they went. You can't answer because you can't answer - you can't explain the release because it's so supremely moronic of a move, it's inexplicable. You're not doing a very good job defending the INS and Obama's move so far. Perhaps these former criminals will simply have their criminal past erased or forgiven. You know... pen and phone + ignoring law and Constitution = Presidential Executive Order.If you tell me who these people were who were released from prisons, I'll respond to your question.
The evidence shows eating dirt is good for you, per the study I linked. When will you be eating dirt? You seem to not want to answer but since you go by the best evidence available... :lamo You really do make it too easy.Correct, you dismissed data you don't like out of hand and have no other evidence to contradict it, but you do have gut feelings!
Then you must not have read it.The article provided no evidence I should eat dirt.
So you don't go by the best evidence available when it doesn't suit you to. :lamoWhat is said was eating dirt has been common throughout history, and speculated that it might provide the same type of benefits as modern day Pepto Bismol. Since I have access to the drug, there is really no advantage to me digging a hole in my backyard to get to the clay, and eating that. Those benefits if any are available through other means.
Hardly - you've done everything BUT address it.Now that I've addressed your red herring, can we move on?
You can't respond because you simply don't have the tools nor capability to answer, none of which is really your fault.I don't know how to respond to arguments that consist entirely of "I reject that evidence, and offer none of my own." I guess we'll have to leave it here.
If anyone wants to have a serious discussion, that's fine. But we just DO HAVE those millions of people who ARE here. If you really don't want them to get healthcare, then what is the option except we let human beings die for lack of care? If you don't want to educate the children of illegals, then what is the option for them when they grow up here? It's not working a job, or a job is FAR less likely, so what is the option if not crime?
It's funny how many times I've asked this question and conservatives really don't want to give a direct answer. The question was what you'd do "in their shoes" sitting in Mexico or Guatemala or somewhere.
I get it - if you're any kind of decent father/son/husband, you'd do what the millions have done and walk across, take the jobs being offered, and give your family the best life you can possibly give them IN THE U.S. And you'd ignore immigration laws same way the employers do.
That is harsh. I'm not aware of anyone proposing denying emergency care. How about they get their care and then if they are determined to be illegal, they are deported once they are discharged from the hospital. You were talking about people dieing for a lack of care.
As an aside, the OP was an attempt to blame this on Obama and the liberals, but that's not the issue.
For the rest, I mostly agree. And the problem is we just do not have the resources to jail all these people once they're detained and until they get through the process. We could change the laws and essentially do away with due process, or build a few dozen more prisons, or double or triple the immigration judges and all the rest. But we haven't done that.
As we speak and for the past several decades at least, being here illegally is a minor crime, and what it would require is a change in the law to make it a more serious crime, then dedicating a lot of resources to deal with that decision. It would require treating criminal employers at least as seriously as the illegals they hire because that is the draw. We'd have to hire a ton of interior enforcement to enforce those laws and levy huge penalties on those employers who break the law. We haven't done that. Etc.
It's just frustrating that these serious problems get reduced to soundbites, or in this thread an inflammatory headline that makes people dumber on the issue and does nothing to figure out how to solve this serious problem.
The terms he used were you are "here illegally, did not enter legally", and I have been giving you a break all throughout this thread.
:lamo Does that nonsense actually work with anyone? The INS doesn't even know who these people are nor where they went. You can't answer because you can't answer - you can't explain the release because it's so supremely moronic of a move, it's inexplicable. You're not doing a very good job defending the INS and Obama's move so far. Perhaps these former criminals will simply have their criminal past erased or forgiven. You know... pen and phone + ignoring law and Constitution = Presidential Executive Order.
The evidence shows eating dirt is good for you, per the study I linked. When will you be eating dirt? You seem to not want to answer but since you go by the best evidence available... :lamo You really do make it too easy.
Then you must not have read it.
So you don't go by the best evidence available when it doesn't suit you to. :lamo
Sure, and here is a summary of their immigration laws. Residency in Costa Rica - How to obtain, Rules and Law - Costa Rica Immigration Law
Retirees wouldn't have a problem because they can meet the requirement that they have a pension of at least $1,000 per month or at least $60,000 to deposit in cash in a bank account, paid out $2,500/month for two years, or $200,000 to invest in Costa Rica.
I'm sure a poor person from Mexico or Guatemala would have no problem with coming up with the $60,000 per person.....
Originally Posted by JasperL
OK, name one that even comes close to offering the same opportunities as the U.S. Honduras? Good choice with the highest murder rate in the world, controlled by the gangs. El Salvador is also good - the murder rate there is just 10 times that of the U.S.
If anyone wants to have a serious discussion, that's fine. But we just DO HAVE those millions of people who ARE here. If you really don't want them to get healthcare, then what is the option except we let human beings die for lack of care? If you don't want to educate the children of illegals, then what is the option for them when they grow up here? It's not working a job, or a job is FAR less likely, so what is the option if not crime?
You're right I don't live in a border state, but the problem is difficult and one liners and slogans aren't going to solve it. We rolled out a red carpet for them, thousands of employers provide them millions of jobs (nearly every roof in my neighborhood was replaced by a team of illegals), no one in government actually cares, the employers love it, and these people have families, and they need what we all need - food, education, lodging, healthcare.
Someone make a serious proposal and we can debate it. What can I say?
That's the same thing bank robbers say. And burglars and welfare frauds and tax cheats. "Hey dood - i just want more money so i can have a better life". But you have to do it legally and the bank robbers and illegal invaders aren't doing that. THINK
The EMTALA Act requires that hospitals give free emergency health care to illegals. Naturally the illegals claim every health problem is an emergency. That's how they get free health care for everything.
Trump said they don't send their best. But everyone freaked out and called him a bigot.
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