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Pro-lifers: Justify the government telling pregnant women what to do

Blue Donkey said:
What is a zef?

Dogs don't get abortions. Vets spay them when they are pregnant so it can't happen again. The difference is what happens to puppies if they are born.
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Yes they do. If their pregnancy endangers them, or if there's no place for the puppies, owners have the puppies aborted.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Of course I am for contraception. Here is an idea: Have free Plan B at police departments so when cops respond to rape and incest cases, they can give the victim a pill.
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That is offered in hospitals, where the women are taken for care and evidence collection.
 
eman623 said:
Is it sickening how many people think pro-life is anti-choice? They support all but one of the choices that the pro-choice folks think.
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It's dishonest to pretend that choice is about more than abortions and when the main issue is legal abortion without interference from conservative Christian anti-abortionists. These are people who don't give a rat's ass about other choices. They are focused only on enforcing one choice, their choice.
 
eman623 said:
You don't respond to any of my points about competing rights. We are just talking past each other.

In any case, the adoption question is a shibboleth. No one is suggesting that abortion is less of a problem because there are X number of kids in foster care.
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I directly addressed the competing rights.

Why do you believe that the unborn is more entitled to a future and self-determination than the woman? A life is more than just breathing.

I believe in quality of life, not quantity.​

Which part didnt you understand? The unborn and born cannot be treated equally under the law (their rights) and I answered it and asked you to define your position further.

here's mine, clarified: I value the unborn, I value all born people more. What do you say? And can you answer my question in bold?
 
eman623 said:
My point exactly. People don't check the adoption stats before they make up their minds whether abortion is right or wrong. It's a non-factor, a red herring intended to obscure the main issue.
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And if abortion were banned ... the percentage will not change.

Very few US women give a newborn especially a healthy newborn up for adoption.
 
eman623 said:
My point exactly. People don't check the adoption stats before they make up their minds whether abortion is right or wrong. It's a non-factor, a red herring intended to obscure the main issue.
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They decide what's right or wrong for themselves. And as you can see, feelings are mixed about adoption.
 
eman623 said:
Is it sickening how many people think pro-life is anti-choice? They support all but one of the choices that the pro-choice folks think.
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Catholics oppose all forms of contraception, which is the opposite of what pro-choicers want. Have you ever seen pro-lifers support free and easy access to OTC contraceptive pills and devices? No, the pro-choicers are doing that.
 
Lursa said:
No, that was not the conversation. The conversation I entered was you claiming that women are owed (or should be owed) public assistance in order to make it easier for them to decide to keep their babies.

Is that correct? The bold? yes or no?

I'll go back and quote it if I need to.
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Yes, that is correct. It is also about helping women get easy access to Plan B, which requires knowing about the drug in less than three days. Wihtout sex education, will women know what it does and where to get it?
 
Lursa said:
Yes they do. If their pregnancy endangers them, or if there's no place for the puppies, owners have the puppies aborted.
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Spaying is not the same surgery. When dogs are spayed, the uterus remains closed and all of her puppies are intact hwen they come out through the lower abdomen.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Yes, that is correct. It is also about helping women get easy access to Plan B, which requires knowing about the drug in less than three days. Wihtout sex education, will women know what it does and where to get it?
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So then address my arguments on entitlements to encourage women to have abortions. You are bobbing and weaving to ignore it.

And every American get sex education starting in at least 8th grade which includes discussing pregnancy and contraception. And it continues thru high school.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Spaying is not the same surgery. When dogs are spayed, the uterus remains closed and all of her puppies remain intact.
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I'm not discussing spaying...that prevents pregnancy...I was specific in describing when an owner would abort unborn puppies. That means a pregnancy :doh
 
Lursa said:
I'm not discussing spaying...that prevents pregnancy...I was specific in describing when an owner would abort unborn puppies. That means a pregnancy :doh
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What vets do is spay the pregnant bitch.
 
Blue Donkey said:
What vets do is spay the pregnant bitch.
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That does nothing about the fetal puppies currently inside her. They must be removed (aborted) if they endanger her health if the owner doesnt have placement for the puppies.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Women have many reasons to get abortions. Most of them are legitimate.
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That is highly debatable. I would argue that ending a life out of convenience because the person to be killed will interfere with work, relationships or finances is ridiculously flimsy. Are we, as a society, to determine a persons worth by how much or little they might impact one person's life?


The only reason to do it that can be ignored by society is a medical emergency, which is not common.
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It is not common, but it does happen. It also isn't germane to this discussion.

No woman or girl who lacks the time, money, and/or ability to take care of a baby should be forced to deliver it anyway.
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They aren't being forced to deliver, even if they are not allowed to have an abortion. They chose the actions that caused them to get pregnant and the laws don't change often enough to allow them the excuse that they didn't know they couldn't abort.

No woman or girl should be forced to suffer the next 8-9 months of her life knowing the baby will never know her and just bounce from one foster home to another. Why do all pro-lifers want this for children?
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Far more babies than not... a lot more... they are adopted. Many adoptive parents wait years to get a child. The children that spend the longest in the system are those that are removed from homes for welfare considerations.

Why do they think the government should decide for pregnant girls and women who will live and die?
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You first, why do you think one person should have the unfettered power to kill an innocent person without cause?

Why doesn't the government treat pregnant girls and women with the care, respect, and dignity they deserve during the most stressful times of their lives?
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I reject the premise of this question. You haven't made the case that the government treats women with disrespect, takes their dignity or denies them care.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Catholics oppose all forms of contraception, which is the opposite of what pro-choicers want. Have you ever seen pro-lifers support free and easy access to OTC contraceptive pills and devices? No, the pro-choicers are doing that.
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I think many Catholics would disagree with you.

Contraceptives are easy access. Why should they be free?
 
Josie said:
I think many Catholics would disagree with you.

Contraceptives are easy access. Why should they be free?
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Church-going Catholics have told me the Catechism prohibits using contraception.

They don't have to be free, but access should be made easier.
 
Blue Donkey said:
Church-going Catholics have told me the Catechism prohibits using contraception.
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That's not the same as "Catholics oppose all forms of birth control". Most Catholics don't. Many Catholics are also pro-choice.

They don't have to be free, but access should be made easier.
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You can buy condoms literally everywhere. How much easier can it get?
 
Josie said:
I think many Catholics would disagree with you.

Contraceptives are easy access. Why should they be free?
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To prevent more abortions.
 
Josie said:
That's not the same as "Catholics oppose all forms of birth control". Most Catholics don't. Many Catholics are also pro-choice.
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However I believe that the Catholic church's stance is against birth control and that that is what "good Catholics" are supposed to follow.
 
Josie said:
You can buy condoms literally everywhere. How much easier can it get?
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This should be part of sex education. We learn about what contraceptives exist and how they work, but not where to find them or which ones don't require a prescription.
 
Blue Donkey said:
This should be part of sex education. We learn about what contraceptives exist and how they work, but not where to find them or which ones don't require a prescription.
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LOL! You just make things up as you go, don't you?
 
Josie said:
LOL! You just make things up as you go, don't you?
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No I don't. This is actually part of my logic. If a woman or girl is raped, she needs to know immediately where to find Plan B or a similar drug.
 
Blue Donkey said:
No I don't. This is actually part of my logic. If a woman or girl is raped, she needs to know immediately where to find Plan B or a similar drug.
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Yes, you did just make that up on the fly … same as your "Catholics oppose all birth control". To think that tween and teens are taught about birth control, but the teachers refuse to tell them or just leave out of the lesson plans where they'd need to go and what they'd need to do to get it is ludicrous and illogical.
 
Josie said:
Yes, you did just make that up on the fly … same as your "Catholics oppose all birth control." To think that tween and teens are taught about birth control, but the teachers refuse to tell them or just leave out of the lesson plans where they'd need to go and what they'd need to do to get it is ludicrous and illogical.
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Tweens are not taught about birth control. Sex education begins in eighth grade, when kids are 13 or 14.

I never said teachers refuse to teach anything. The states should expand the lesson a little bit if it does not already include what you can get without a prescription.

Catholics personally told me Plan B is murder because life begins at conception, according to the Church.
 
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