the difference in pro-gun vs anti-gun

[Rich2018]

the crimes would still happen because nothing was done to stop the criminals/crimes

Crime will still happen, just the worst kind - shootings - will be greatly reduced.

why would you do that ?

To remove guns from society.

expand on that for me please - and how it equates to stopping violence

You asked: "can you give me an example of anything else in the USA that we try to tackle and do the same method ?"

Child porn is an example of "anything else".

lets do death penalty for murders using guns - deal ?

Absolutely not.

well we WOULD "eliminate" mass shootings by doing that, which of course means all the violence is still happening, we just call it something else

The idea is to greatly reduce mass shootings, not pretend they don't exist.

and you get to decide what is and isn't a "good reason"

Nope the law does.

I'd think 100% of women raped wishes they'd have had a way to stop the rape wouldn't you ?

I think many women would baulk at the idea of shooting someone until it was too late, even if they were carrying a gun
You seem to have some strange idea of how a rape goes down, or mugging for that matter.

and how do they do it ?

Without a gun.

but we have more and more gun laws every year - how's that possible ?

Half measures.

so they'd use another weapons - you're ignoring the core problems

Hard to do a mass shooting without a gun.

you think inanimate objects make people violence is the silliest thing I've every read

That would be an issue with your reading skills as I never said that.

you tell me https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing...-gun-violence-and-make-our-communities-safer/

From your source: "President Biden Announces New Actions to Reduce Gun Violence and Make Our Communities Safer"

Biden keeps pushing for more gun laws, banning guns/accessories, ... how about this gem

Democrats demand 1,000% excise tax on ‘assault weapons,’ high-capacity magazines

More than two dozen House Democrats put forward legislation Friday that would impose a 1,000% tax on "assault weapons" and high-capacity magazines.

www.foxnews.com

Where does this source mention President Biden ?

law abiding citizens in the crosshairs of all that

No, criminals are.

 

[hecatmoggie]

Crime will still happen, just the worst kind - shootings - will be greatly reduced.

exactly what I've been saying - liberals want to take away people's #1 choice in self defense against crimes that'll STILL happen - ya'll don't want to stop criminals at all, you just want them to use other weapons AND disarm law abiding people too

To remove guns from society.

which is what I've been saying - you don't want to targe criminals at all

You asked: "can you give me an example of anything else in the USA that we try to tackle and do the same method ?"

Child porn is an example of "anything else".

well it is - however I guess if you want to compare it .... is child porn extinct? sex trafficking gone? underage abuse a thing of the past?

• With information that 70 million online images and videos of child pornography were reported to law enforcement in 2019 alone, 62% of Americans said that was “far more than expected,” and 66% said they didn't know this was a serious, growing problem.Dec 10, 2020
• Child pornography is one of the fastest growing crimes in the United States right now. Nationally, there has been a 2500% increase in arrests in the past10 ...
• More than 29 million reports of suspected child sexual exploitation are received by the National Center for Missing & Exploited Children annually.
• Mar 19, 2022 — The organization said there was a 35 percent increase from 2020 to 2021 in suspected child sexual exploitation online.

you can google more ... law making it illegal (while needed) is also couple with lax enough laws that people still do it. A LOT. So your example is fastly growing, still everywhere ...... that's your "bans" and the liberal mindset isn't it ?

Absolutely not.

why not? you want to send a message to people to NOT do violent crimes with a gun? that'll do it

The idea is to greatly reduce mass shootings, not pretend they don't exist.

the cost of disarming citizens and taking hunting and shooting sports from people isn't worth forcing violent people to use other weapons - me? I want to eliminate violent people the best we can and if we can do that, everyone can have guns and knives and nobody has to give up anything which makes MUCH more sense than changing the Constitution, gun confiscations etc etc

Nope the law does.

your anti-gun law making people? lets let NRA backed Republican's make the laws - k ?

I think many women would baulk at the idea of shooting someone until it was too late, even if they were carrying a gun
You seem to have some strange idea of how a rape goes down, or mugging for that matter.

you think people would rather be raped and beaten/robbed etc ? I don't like people being victims, you seem to want everyone to be victims. I don't understand that

 

[hecatmoggie]

Without a gun.

and how successful is that? a 5' 105# woman successfully thwarting a rape ?

educate yourself https://www.rainn.org/statistics/victims-sexual-violence

women are easy victims - the violent men know it too. Women with guns have a chance, I think almost every woman would like that chance to stop their rapists if they could reverse time

You think they'd rather be victims? I mean seriously?

Half measures.

failures you mean

Hard to do a mass shooting without a gun.

hard to drive to a school to do a mass shooting without a car - ban cars, stop mass shootings

again and again for the 500th time, lets stop these 0.05% violent people and not target the 99.95% who do nothing wrong

why are you so hell bent on targeting law abiding people ?

That would be an issue with your reading skills as I never said that

no, you said it the quote is this ... I said " the core problem is those violent people why don't your side understand that ?" and you replied and I quote ""And they'd be much less of one without guns"

they'd be much less violent without guns - that's what you said.

.From your source: "President Biden Announces New Actions to Reduce Gun Violence and Make Our Communities Safer"

Where does this source mention President Biden ?

No, criminals are.

Biden = Democrats, they'd working on the same side as you are

of all the people affected by your side's additional laws/rules/restrictions, what % affected are law abiding people ?

99.95% ? that's safe to say, right ?

 

[Rich2018]

exactly what I've been saying - liberals want to take away people's #1 choice in self defense against crimes that'll STILL happen

Or want to take away the #1 tool for the worst crimes
ie: shootings and particularly mass shootings

which is what I've been saying - you don't want to targe criminals at all

Criminals are part of society, and it is them I seek to disarm the most

.... is child porn extinct? sex trafficking gone? underage abuse a thing of the past?

No, but so what ?
Is it not desirable to eradicate them from society ?

... law making it illegal (while needed) is also couple with lax enough laws that people still do it. A LOT. So your example is fastly growing, still everywhere ...... that's your "bans" and the liberal mindset isn't it ?

Child porn is somewhat easier to distribute than guns, as are drugs
eg: in the UK, drugs and guns (mostly) are banned. But whist gun crime is rare, sadly, like the USA, there's a big drug problem

why not? you want to send a message to people to NOT do violent crimes with a gun? that'll do it

Sure, hit demand for guns with stiff penalties for having one, but also hit supply by banning their manufacture/import

the cost of disarming citizens and taking hunting and shooting sports from people isn't worth forcing violent people to use other weapon

Absolutely, 100% it is

lets let NRA backed Republican's make the laws

LOL
Like letting Mexican cartels make drug laws

you think people would rather be raped and beaten/robbed etc ?

I think people would rather not be shot

and how successful is that? a 5' 105# woman successfully thwarting a rape ?

So why isn't there public support for guns in the UK or Japan ?
Don't rapes happen there ?

You think they'd rather be victims? I mean seriously?

I'd rather not be the victim of an active shooter

hard to drive to a school to do a mass shooting without a car - ban cars, stop mass shootings

How do you think Cruz got to Parkland school ?
How do you think Harris and Klebold got to Columbine school ?

lets stop these 0.05% violent people and not target the 99.95% who do nothing wrong

With 400+ mass shootings per year, what's your plan ?
More laws ?

why are you so hell bent on targeting law abiding people ?

Why are you hell bent on seeing them shot ?

I said " the core problem is those violent people why don't your side understand that ?" and you replied and I quote ""And they'd be much less of one without guns"

Correct, they'd be much less of a problem without their guns

Biden = Democrats, they'd working on the same side as you are

So it's not Biden.

 

[RF667799]

Guns are used in shootings more than other items are.

Who would have thought that?

 

[Rich2018]

Guns are used in shootings more than other items are.

Who would have thought that?

Ya think ?

 

[hecatmoggie]

Or want to take away the #1 tool for the worst crimes
ie: shootings and particularly mass shootings

like we take away alcohol and cars for the 99.5% of the people who drunk drive? or like we take knives from the 99.99% of people who don't stab/murder other people? Or we take food from people to help obese people? or we take away all prescription drugs to stop the few who abuse them ?

see, the only thing you really gave as an analogy was child porn which of course everyone is against and isn't a Constitutional Right and yet its still a booming business because laws in books and minimum punishments isn't working but hey, I'm sure you'll blame something other than the perpetrators for it, some inanimate object or something?

Criminals are part of society, and it is them I seek to disarm the most

you seek to disarm 125 million American's in hopes of making an impact on the 15,000 violent people every year - what sense is that? it makes zero sense

No, but so what ?
Is it not desirable to eradicate them from society ?

you made the comparison - how's it working? its exploding STILL - your side's lenient sentencing and luxury prison's and defunding police strategies and such is working so well to eradicate child porn

you made the comparison - not me

Child porn is somewhat easier to distribute than guns, as are drugs
eg: in the UK, drugs and guns (mostly) are banned. But whist gun crime is rare, sadly, like the USA, there's a big drug problem

so no crime in UK since there are no guns ?

Sure, hit demand for guns with stiff penalties for having one, but also hit supply by banning their manufacture/import

what? again, you're attacking legal law abiding people - why would you do that? why not attack the criminals?

Absolutely, 100% it is

no, it isn't and since this country was founded it hasn't been and guns are probably more popular now than in the last 3 decades thanks in part to anti-gun nuts trying to get them banned

I think people would rather not be shot

exactly ! and if a rapist thought their would be victim had a gun, they'd not make the attempt at rape

or burglary, or assault ..... you put a gun in a criminal's face and they understand really fast they chose the wrong person to mess with



if I had my way, every attempted rape the next 6 months would be met with a woman with a gun killing her attacker - you'd absolutely hate that wouldn't you? You'd rather the victims be victims and not have a gun to defend themselves with - that's the society you envision

 

[hecatmoggie]

So why isn't there public support for guns in the UK or Japan ?
Don't rapes happen there ?

different society/culture/constitutions/governments etc etc

I'd rather not be the victim of an active shooter

which is exactly what you are if you have no way to fight back - a victim

I think you are a criminals best friend - you have no way to protect yourself so they can do anything they want to you or your loved ones and take whatever they want. you want to disarm everyone so nobody can fight back and you want lax laws so even if they're caught after they do the deeds, its minimal sentencing. That's a liberal anti-gun person's views I think because if it was about stopping the criminals we'd see a very different attack on the situation I'd think

With 400+ mass shootings per year, what's your plan ?
More laws ?

we've discussed ideas, even tough on criminals idea I come up with you refuse - why do you think that is ?

Why are you hell bent on seeing them shot ?

I'm not, I don't want to see victims of criminals, my view says get rid of criminals/violent people

your view is to use other weapons

Correct, they'd be much less of a problem without their guns

how do you figure? rapists don't use guns, violent people abuse/assault people everyday, there are many many stabbings in our country (did you know its like twice as many kiled with knives as semi-auto rifles?)

your view says disarm everyone - all the 99.95% who are legal and law abiding have no way to protect themselves now. We can't trust police and there aren't near as many because your side hates them. Also, your side is lenient on penalties so there are a lot of criminals on the streets. Sure, in your perfect USA without guns nobody is using guns .... but the criminals and violent people? they're STILL being violent, doing all their rapes and assaults etc ............ using other weapons of course so its all good and fine I guess ?

in big cities in the USA with tougher gun laws ....... your fewer legal guns idea is working brilliantly I'm assuming ?

 

[Rich2018]

like we take away alcohol and cars for the 99.5% of the people who drunk drive?

We tried taking away alcohol once, what happened ?
Motor transport is vital so we tolerate traffic deaths/injuries - that doesn't mean we don't continuously work to improve road safety
As I told you, we should ban the carrying of knives etc without a good reason

see, the only thing you really gave as an analogy was child porn

You missed the drugs then

you seek to disarm 125 million American's in hopes

Yes

you made the comparison - how's it working? its exploding STILL

So all stick isn't working, what a surprise
Tell me where you think it is working

so no crime in UK since there are no guns ?

Gun crime is rare in the UK, and that's the goal of gun control

you're attacking legal law abiding people - why would you do that? why not attack the criminals?

Gun control is not "attacking" anyone. It just seeks to disarm them, including criminals

since this country was founded it hasn't been and guns are probably more popular now than in the last 3 decades thanks in part to anti-gun nuts trying to get them banned

All the more reason to ban them

if a rapist thought their would be victim had a gun, they'd not make the attempt at rape

So rapes don't exist in states with liberal gun laws ?

if I had my way, every attempted rape the next 6 months would be met with a woman with a gun killing her attacker - you'd absolutely hate that wouldn't you? You'd rather the victims be victims and not have a gun to defend themselves with - that's the society you envision

So you'd grant every woman license to shoot any man who approaches her ?
How about men, would you give them all a license to kill anyone who approaches them on account that they might be a mugger ?

different society/culture/constitutions/governments

So Americans need to improve their society/culture etc

which is exactly what you are if you have no way to fight back - a victim

I'd much rather the criminal didn't have a gun though

I think you are a criminals best friend - you have no way to protect yourself

Run/hide/comply
What do you have ?

I don't want to see victims of criminals

Especially the aftermath of a school shooting

rapists don't use guns

3 pedestrians raped at gunpoint in Towson, man arrested and charged

A heinous crime has Towson residents on edge after police say three people were raped at gunpoint in the alley just steps from the Towson Circle Thursday.“It sh

foxbaltimore.com

there are many many stabbings in our country

You have way more chance of surviving a stab wound than a gunshot wound

your view says disarm everyone

Yes

in big cities in the USA with tougher gun laws ....... your fewer legal guns idea is working brilliantly I'm assuming ?

Thanks to the 2nd Amendment, all gun control laws are half measures at best.

 

[hecatmoggie]

We tried taking away alcohol once, what happened ?
Motor transport is vital so we tolerate traffic deaths/injuries - that doesn't mean we don't continuously work to improve road safety
As I told you, we should ban the carrying of knives etc without a good reason

you show banning doesn't work (prohibition) then talk about banning ..... what's your thought process on that really ?

we continually try and get people to be less violent too, but we don't ban cars, alcohol and we don't need to ban guns or knives

Yes

I'll give you credit for at least admitting you want to take guns from people while giving up nothing yourself

So all stick isn't working, what a surprise
Tell me where you think it is working

I could give you a suggestion on how to impact child porn - 20 years in prison sentencing, castration, death ... but your liberal Democrat would never go for harsh penalties to stop the abuse of children so ... it continues.

Gun crime is rare in the UK, and that's the goal of gun control
Gun control is not "attacking" anyone. It just seeks to disarm them, including criminals

knife crime is what criminals have turned to in the UK and its so problematic they had to ban knives too - see, UK never tried to stop the criminals, they're still there, committing crimes and the people in the UK are victims whenever a criminal comes around. But UK is a very different culture too

All the more reason to ban them

again at least you don't hide, you admit you want to ban, I can appreciate that

So rapes don't exist in states with liberal gun laws ?

google key words along the lines of woman prevented rape using gun or something like that - see the articles where women defended themselves. Women have had guns and a way to fight back and stop being victims. If we could stop just one rape, wouldn't it be worth it ?

So you'd grant every woman license to shoot any man who approaches her ?
How about men, would you give them all a license to kill anyone who approaches them on account that they might be a mugger ?

who said "approaches her" ? I certainly didn't - but I knew you'd disagree. You want a country of victims, I do not. I don't understand why you'd want that, we know that criminals aint going to stop

So Americans need to improve their society/culture etc

you want the Govt to force culture now ?

I'd much rather the criminal didn't have a gun though

they legally can't right now .... why aren't your more and more laws working ? why don't criminals pay attention to the laws ?

Run/hide/comply
What do you have ?

if that's my best options I might run/hide/comply , every situation is different but sometimes a person cannot run/hide and in some situations I'm not giving up my things because a criminal demands that I do .... and in those situations, putting a gun in the face of the criminals can save your life, save you from a beating, save you from being robbed of your possessions

we have a Right in this country to self defend - I know you don't support that and want criminals to have free reign to do what they want but I cannot ever agree with you on that. A robber/thief would see you as an ideal target - they could take all your valuables, they could rape you or your family and you'd be helpless to stop them. That's your right to be a victim and I support your choice in being like that. Me? I don't want to be like that and many American's don't either.

 

[hecatmoggie]

Especially the aftermath of a school shooting

yes, especially that ... which is why I support death penalty for school shooters and armed guards to shoot dead anyone trying to do that on a campus. Both ideas liberals reject and so, we still have

3 pedestrians raped at gunpoint in Towson, man arrested and charged

A heinous crime has Towson residents on edge after police say three people were raped at gunpoint in the alley just steps from the Towson Circle Thursday.“It sh

foxbaltimore.com

I stand corrected, lets say "most" rapists are not gun carrying and my point remains, the victims had no way to fight back - that's your run/hide/comply at work, isn't it ?

You have way more chance of surviving a stab wound than a gunshot wound

that's true however police (the trained guys) and military both will tell you to defend equally on someone with a drawn knife or gun right? both are potentially going to kill you, you don't treat one less than the other

Thanks to the 2nd Amendment, all gun control laws are half measures at best.

then lets stop adding more half measures and really target criminals then - go after the 15,000 violent people/mentally ill people that would do these things and leave the 125 million gun owners alone (they didn't do anything wrong)

makes much better sense doesn't it ?

 

[Rich2018]

you show banning doesn't work (prohibition)

Banning alcoholic drinks and drugs didn't/isn't worked/working
That does not mean that banning guns wouldn't work
Indeed the evidence is that gun bans do work

we don't need to ban guns or knives

Yes we do (banning guns period) and banning the carrying of knives (over about 2" in length) without good reason

I'll give you credit for at least admitting you want to take guns from people while giving up nothing yourself

Giving up the right to keep & bear arms

I could give you a suggestion on how to impact child porn - 20 years in prison sentencing, castration, death

Evidence that it would work ? (aside from being unconstitutional)

knife crime is what criminals have turned to in the UK and its so problematic they had to ban knives too

Hence almost no mass shootings
And carrying carrying a knife, without good reason, is illegal
In recent years there's been 3 Muslim terrorist attacks in central London, in each case the terrorists used edged weapons. Sure a few people were killed but that was much better than if they'd had guns

UK never tried to stop the criminals, they're still there

The UK has laws against criminal behavior
Where in the world do you think criminals have been stopped ?

google key words along the lines of woman prevented rape using gun or something like that

It didn't take an exhaustive Google search to prove your claim, that rapists don't use guns, wrong

who said "approaches her" ?

So when would you allow a woman to draw a gun and shoot ?

you want the Govt to force culture now ?

Yes

they legally can't right now

But they can in reality

if that's my best options I might run/hide/comply

In that order
Where's your evidence that drawing a gun is more successful ?

we have a Right in this country to self defend

As in the UK
Though what constitutes "defense" is open to question

which is why I support death penalty for school shooters and armed guards to shoot dead anyone trying to do that on a campus

Even though a lot of states don't have the death penalty ?
Why do school shootings only happen in the USA ? (bar 1 or 2 exceptions)

that's true however police (the trained guys) and military both will tell you to defend equally on someone with a drawn knife or gun right?

I was in the army once and I'd tell you your best defense is the run/hide/fight (in that order) against an active shooter
And to comply with a mugger

then lets stop adding more half measures and really target criminals then

A gun ban will do that be disarming them
Sure violent crime will still exist, but the criminals that commit them will be far less dangerous.

 

[hecatmoggie]

Banning alcoholic drinks and drugs didn't/isn't worked/working
That does not mean that banning guns wouldn't work
Indeed the evidence is that gun bans do work

no, there is no evidence of that ... show me a big city that has very hard gun control that has reduced CRIME

see, you might can show a reduction in violence using guns, but violence/crime itself if STILL happening which is why I say liberal/anti-gun people have no interest at all in stopping criminals/crime/violence - ya'll just want to disarm law abiding people and make us all victims other countries are not the USA either

Yes we do (banning guns period) and banning the carrying of knives (over about 2" in length) without good reason
Giving up the right to keep & bear arms

you don't have guns - I bet you don't carry a knife either - you're literally giving up nothing yourself

Evidence that it would work ? (aside from being unconstitutional)

so have easy penalties works better .... I'll tell you this, put every person who commits a violent crime using a gun to death and they'll never repeat that crime

but your side loves light sentences which leads to repeat offenders and then ya'll wonder why we have violence and crimes

Hence almost no mass shootings
And carrying carrying a knife, without good reason, is illegal
In recent years there's been 3 Muslim terrorist attacks in central London, in each case the terrorists used edged weapons. Sure a few people were killed but that was much better than if they'd had guns

ban guns, they'll use knives
ban knives, they'll use knives anyway but smaller bladed ones
ban all knives, they'll use illegal weapons or other weapons

I have a suggestion - really crack down on all the violent people and UK citizens could have guns and knives and anything they wanted because there wouldn't be anyone doing violence much

The UK has laws against criminal behavior
Where in the world do you think criminals have been stopped ?

at least you kinda see here in this statement that criminals are the core problem

So when would you allow a woman to draw a gun and shoot ?

now you're asking me to live out situations where women are raped and we can't do that

what we CAN do is realize women need a way to fight back

The charity 'Rape Crisis' has reported 1 in 4 women being raped or sexually assaulted as an adult and the highest number of rape cases reported to the police in march 2022 was 70,330. The overall statistics in England and Wales found that 85,000 women experience rape, attempted rape or sexual assault every year.Jan 1, 2023

why do no guns in the UK = no rapes in the UK ?

In that order
Where's your evidence that drawing a gun is more successful ?

did I ever say "more successful" ? you did, I didn't people have the Right to self defense, like it or not .... and I guess unlike you I trust a woman with a gun to make the right decision when her life is on the line of being raped or killed

As in the UK
Though what constitutes "defense" is open to question

why aren't women defeating rape attempts in the UK then ?

Even though a lot of states don't have the death penalty ?
Why do school shootings only happen in the USA ? (bar 1 or 2 exceptions)

we live in a violent culture that's unlike any in the world when combined with our freedoms

I was in the army once and I'd tell you your best defense is the run/hide/fight (in that order) against an active shooter
And to comply with a mugger

you are a victim and if you were Army how in the world did you come away with run/hide/fight .... I've never met a military person who came out of the military with that discipline

Can you imagine winning WWI or WWII with that philosophy ?

A gun ban will do that be disarming them
Sure violent crime will still exist, but the criminals that commit them will be far less dangerous.

you've already admitted bans don't work - good gawd make up your mind, they DO work or they do NOT work, which is it ?


instead of failure which you've admitted in drunk driving/alcohol/child porn etc ban tactics, lets instead focus on what you just admitted was the core problem violent people

 

[zsu2357]

Almost all of those women are hurt by current or ex-romantic partners. Not random dudes in a Food Lion parking lot with a ton of witnesses to intervene.

You might as well be arguing against seat belts because sometimes they choke or leave bruises on people. As if somehow that's better than hundreds if not thousands of people dying because they went flying heads first through the windshield.

Are you ****ing kidding me? This is the best you got? 6000 cases?

There were 48,000 gun deaths in the united states last year.

Half of your bullshit stories have no way to verify their accuracy and most of the rest don't even qualify.
I think this was my favorite...

If a 14-year-old girl only needs a knife what's wrong with you that makes you think you need a gun?
I thought you were arguing about the need for guns. This little girl didn't seem to need one. Why is she on your list?

Or how about this one...

I'm confused... If this man went on a home invasion spree, how come he didn't kill anybody in the first few houses he invaded?
Oh, that's right because the overwhelming majority of burglars aren't trying to kill or hurt anyone. They want your stuff. So you don't need a gun to protect yourself, you just need a deadbolt and a dog.

Or this one...

He was a thief, that's all. He claimed he had a gun, but he didn't. So there was never really any danger to the manager or employees. He wanted money, that's all.

So this manager risked starting a gunfight in his store which could have resulted in the death of himself or his employees all so he could defend the $200 in the cash register. He's not a hero, he's a ****ing moron.

WTF man are you a part-time criminal or what? You seem to think people should just let themselves be robbed by any means possible. And the little quip about "are you ****ing kidding me? This is the best you got 6000 cases?" If one person gets shot you guys leave the rails over it.

 

[hecatmoggie]

so if I'm getting this correct ....

we need to ban guns, although we know it won't stop one single criminal from committing their crimes/rapes and will affect 125 million people who have done nothing wrong AND disarm them as well (the best means of self defense). on top of that, we've talked about bans on alcohol (failed), drunk driving (failed) child porn (failed) but hey, a gun ban will surely work, right ? (except in places in the USA where there is very tight gun control and still violent crimes happen amazingly enough)

now, we can't trust the police, so don't even think about that being an option when a violent person/criminal comes ... no, instead, hide (and let them hurt other people) run (and leave everything behind) or comply (just give in to the rape or let them steal everything you have)

and after all that if the criminals are caught, give them easy sentencing, no cash bail, early paroles ... get them back on the street so they can continue to add to their rap sheets I guess ?


count me out, no thank you

 

[Rich2018]

no, there is no evidence of that ... show me a big city that has very hard gun control that has reduced CRIME

Gun control is not motivated to reduce crime (though it will a little)
It is motivated to significantly reduce shootings in general and mass shootings in particular (a very small proportion of overall crime)

you don't have guns - I bet you don't carry a knife either - you're literally giving up nothing yourself

Yet here I am. A resident of Georgia for 22 years and never needed either

so have easy penalties works better .... I'll tell you this, put every person who commits a violent crime using a gun to death and they'll never repeat that crime

People who're convicted of shootings generally don't repeat it anyway

but your side loves light sentences which leads to repeat offenders and then ya'll wonder why we have violence and crimes

Really ?
Prove it

ban guns, they'll use knives
ban knives, they'll use knives anyway but smaller bladed ones
ban all knives, they'll use illegal weapons or other weapons

Better they have knives rather than guns - I gave you the example of 3 terrorist attacks in London to show why
Better they have something else other than guns or an edged weapon

really crack down on all the violent people and UK citizens could have guns and knives and anything they wanted because there wouldn't be anyone doing violence much

Nope, let people have guns and we'll get more mass shootings
What evidence do you have that the UK does not "crack down" on violent crime already ?

at least you kinda see here in this statement that criminals are the core problem

And the fact that they have guns

now you're asking me to live out situations where women are raped and we can't do that

Rapes do occur in the USA
What evidence do you have that they're less common than in the UK or Japan where guns are largely banned ?

why do no guns in the UK = no rapes in the UK ?

Why don't lots of guns in the USA = no rapes in the USA ?

people have the Right to self defense

Just like in the UK

why aren't women defeating rape attempts in the UK then ?

Why aren't women in the USA then ?

we live in a violent culture that's unlike any in the world when combined with our freedoms

How is it different from the UK ?

if you were Army how in the world did you come away with run/hide/fight

Then you've never met many ex-military
Maybe it's because I don't want to be a casualty in a mugging/mass shooting
Take my advice, if you're mugged, hand over your wallet. If you get caught up in a mass shooting, run and if you can't then hide

Can you imagine winning WWI or WWII with that philosophy ?

Countries that stayed out of it did OK and let others do the fighting. Same if you get mugged etc, if there's fighting to be done, let those who get paid to do it, do it

you've already admitted bans don't work - good gawd make up your mind, they DO work or they do NOT work, which is it ?

Do you just not read ?
What did I say about the UK where guns AND drugs are banned ?

instead of failure which you've admitted in drunk driving/alcohol/child porn etc ban tactics, lets instead focus on what you just admitted was the core problem violent people

And specifically, their guns.

 

[Rich2018]

so if I'm getting this correct ....

we need to ban guns, although we know it won't stop one single criminal from committing their crimes/rapes and will affect 125 million people who have done nothing wrong AND disarm them as well (the best means of self defense). on top of that, we've talked about bans on alcohol (failed), drunk driving (failed) child porn (failed) but hey, a gun ban will surely work, right ? (except in places in the USA where there is very tight gun control and still violent crimes happen amazingly enough)

now, we can't trust the police, so don't even think about that being an option when a violent person/criminal comes ... no, instead, hide (and let them hurt other people) run (and leave everything behind) or comply (just give in to the rape or let them steal everything you have)

and after all that if the criminals are caught, give them easy sentencing, no cash bail, early paroles ... get them back on the street so they can continue to add to their rap sheets I guess ?


count me out, no thank you

But it will greatly reduce (if not eradicate) shootings - and THAT'S the goal of gun control

Perhaps we can't trust the police all the time, but I much rather they fight the muggers/rapists/shooters/intruders, wouldn't you ?

Where are criminals given "easy sentencing" ?
Citation required

Try to read replies before replying yourself.

 

[hecatmoggie]

People who're convicted of shootings generally don't repeat it anyway

"don't repeat anyway" is actually 65% recidivism for violent crimes. You didn't know that ?

Seventy percent of prisoners released in 2012 were arrested again within five years, according to data from the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS). The recidivism rate is over 80% for prisoners with juvenile records.

Violent crime had the lowest recidivism rate (65%0 , but prisoners also faced longer sentences than other types of crime. With longer sentences, prisoners are more likely to be older when released, which is associated with lower recidivism rates.

How common is it for released prisoners to re-offend? - USAFacts

More than eight out of every 10 youth offenders are arrested again within five years of release.

usafacts.org

as I have said over and over - 10X prison sentences for violent crimes using guns and death penalty for murder

Really ?
Rapes do occur in the USA
What evidence do you have that they're less common than in the UK or Japan where guns are largely banned ?

you tried to tie in raping to rapists using guns - and now you're not wanting to discuss all the rapes in UK where there are no guns

classic

Why don't lots of guns in the USA = no rapes in the USA ?

Countless crimes are foiled each year by gun owners

Every 13 seconds an American gun owner uses a firearm in defense against a criminal. Officials maintain the use of firearms for self-defense is an important crime deterrent. “Self-defense can be an important crime deterrent,” says a new report by the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). Just...

www.lootpress.com

lots of self defense stops our numbers from being way higher

Then you've never met many ex-military
Maybe it's because I don't want to be a casualty in a mugging/mass shooting
Take my advice, if you're mugged, hand over your wallet. If you get caught up in a mass shooting, run and if you can't then hide

I think you are very weak, and I support you being a victim and running, stay out of the way of people who want to stand up and have the balls to fight back. Its good that you know your limitations, I appreciate that honesty I do.

Countries that stayed out of it did OK and let others do the fighting. Same if you get mugged etc, if there's fighting to be done, let those who get paid to do it, do it

wow - and you say you were military lol

 

[hecatmoggie]

But it will greatly reduce (if not eradicate) shootings - and THAT'S the goal of gun control

but not crimes, not assaults, not rapes, not murders .... they'll all happen with other weapons

you also want every law abiding citizen to be a victim to the above criminals/violent people


unbelievable

 

[Rich2018]

"don't repeat anyway" is actually 65% recidivism for violent crimes. You didn't know that ?

So are you aware of anyone who was convicted of a shooting, who was released and committed another shooting ?
Certainly no-one who's ever been released after committing a mass shooting that I'm aware of.

you tried to tie in raping to rapists using guns

No, that was you, who claimed falsely that rapists don't use guns.

lots of self defense stops our numbers from being way higher

Yeah, take that with a huge pinch of salt
How many involved the actual discharge of a firearm - you know incidents that would require a police report as verification ?
Not many
So if a gun isn't discharged, it may as well be a replica huh ?

I think you are very weak

I certainly am if ever I has a gun pointed at me - for obvious reasons.

stay out of the way of people who want to stand up and have the balls to fight back. Its good that you know your limitations, I appreciate that honesty I do.

Someone like you huh ?
You talk a good fight.

...and you say you were military

Yes, though I'd bet you aren't and never will be.

but not crimes, not assaults, not rapes, not murders .... they'll all happen with other weapons

So long as they're not guns
If they're not knives either, that would be even better.

you also want every law abiding citizen to be a victim to the above criminals/violent people

Why would anyone want that ?
It's as stupid as saying you want "every law abiding citizen to be a victim" of a gunman.

unbelievable

And a stupid assertion by you.

 

[hecatmoggie]

So are you aware of anyone who was convicted of a shooting, who was released and committed another shooting ?
Certainly no-one who's ever been released after committing a mass shooting that I'm aware of.

you can't be serious .... https://www.wesleylowe.com/repoff.html

released after committing a mass shooting .... so now want to only discuss the very few every year who meet your definition and live through the shooting ...... but you do NOT want to discuss all the repeat offenders that revolve through our judicial system and commit crime after crime

No, that was you, who claimed falsely that rapists don't use guns.

oh good gawd ... I agreed with you that a few do yes

Yeah, take that with a huge pinch of salt
How many involved the actual discharge of a firearm - you know incidents that would require a police report as verification ?
Not many
So if a gun isn't discharged, it may as well be a replica huh ?

I have no idea what that ramble means

I certainly am if ever I has a gun pointed at me - for obvious reasons.

or a knife, or a physical bully or a loud voice commanding you .... run/hide/comply right ?

there is another option - fight back don't be victim

Someone like you huh ?
You talk a good fight.

yes, me ... and many people like me who stand up and won't be victims .... like the person that I linked this thread to

Yes, though I'd bet you aren't and never will be.

no, I will never be now ... a regret I have, I should have joined out of high school and I'm sorry, but a person who is anti-gun to the core and willingly a victim was Army ? I don't buy it, sorry

So long as they're not guns
If they're not knives either, that would be even better.

right - do nothing to stop crime/violence is the anti-gun view ... baffles me

Why would anyone want that ?

well, you want people disarmed, to have no way to defend themselves against a criminal/violence person who has superior force. That's YOUR side

me? I'd like to see every law abiding person armed - talk about making criminals second guess their actions !

 

[MrWonka]

WTF man are you a part-time criminal or what? You seem to think people should just let themselves be robbed by any means possible.

No, I'm pointing out to the gun nut crowd that for every 100,000 dipshits who conceal and carry a loaded weapon on their person 24 hours a day 7 days a week, there's maybe 4 per year that use it to protect themselves or a loved one while at least 80 a year end up hurting themselves or a loved one.

Your property is just stuff. If you're properly insured your stuff can be replaced. You cannot replace YOU. So risking your life in a gunfight to save $200 worth of stuff is an incredibly stupid choice.
This is why every time you hear a story about some hero employee who chased down and beat up a robber, that employee gets fired. Businesses and insurance companies are smart enough to do the math. They would much rather lose whatever meaningless stuff the thief stole than have an employee wind up in a hospital or morgue.
The human life is way ****ing more valuable than stuff.

If you want to prevent yourself from being robbed, there are a ton of other SMART ways to do it that have nothing to do with guns.
Lock your ****ing doors.
Get a deadbolt.
Get a Dog.
Get more lighting, specifically motion sensor lighting.
Get cameras.
Don't carry cash.

All of these things are far more likely to protect you and prevent someone from even trying to rob you in the first place.
Guns are horrible defensive weapons, and if you carry a loaded one around all ****ing day every day, it is virtually assured to be the source of your problem, not the solution to it.

And the little quip about "are you ****ing kidding me? This is the best you got 6000 cases?" If one person gets shot you guys leave the rails over it.

No, if another one gets shot. There are 48,000 shooting deaths in the United States every single solitary year. If we could cut that number in half by reducing the proliferation of guns it prevent 4 times more deaths than your fake 6000.

 

[Rucker61]

No, I'm pointing out to the gun nut crowd that for every 100,000 dipshits who conceal and carry a loaded weapon on their person 24 hours a day 7 days a week, there's maybe 4 per year that use it to protect themselves or a loved one while at least 80 a year end up hurting themselves or a loved one.

Your property is just stuff. If you're properly insured your stuff can be replaced. You cannot replace YOU. So risking your life in a gunfight to save $200 worth of stuff is an incredibly stupid choice.

If only those who are robbing people using a gun promise not to shoot anyone while doing so.

This is why every time you hear a story about some hero employee who chased down and beat up a robber, that employee gets fired. Businesses and insurance companies are smart enough to do the math. They would much rather lose whatever meaningless stuff the thief stole than have an employee wind up in a hospital or morgue.
The human life is way ****ing more valuable than stuff.

I don't care about stuff, but anyone threatening me with a gun to take my stuff is threatening to shoot me over my stuff.

If you want to prevent yourself from being robbed, there are a ton of other SMART ways to do it that have nothing to do with guns.
Lock your ****ing doors.
Get a deadbolt.
Get a Dog.
Get more lighting, specifically motion sensor lighting.
Get cameras.
Don't carry cash.

How does this prevent anyone from getting robbed? How would the potential robber know?

All of these things are far more likely to protect you and prevent someone from even trying to rob you in the first place.
Guns are horrible defensive weapons, and if you carry a loaded one around all ****ing day every day, it is virtually assured to be the source of your problem, not the solution to it.

I can't wait to see your data on this.

No, if another one gets shot. There are 48,000 shooting deaths in the United States every single solitary year. If we could cut that number in half by reducing the proliferation of guns it prevent 4 times more deaths than your fake 6000.

You can't reduce the number of guns, nor the ownership rate. Now what? How would you disarm those who use a gun for suicide?

 

[RF667799]

No, I'm pointing out to the gun nut crowd that for every 100,000 dipshits who conceal and carry a loaded weapon on their person 24 hours a day 7 days a week, there's maybe 4 per year that use it to protect themselves or a loved one while at least 80 a year end up hurting themselves or a loved one.

Your property is just stuff. If you're properly insured your stuff can be replaced. You cannot replace YOU. So risking your life in a gunfight to save $200 worth of stuff is an incredibly stupid choice.
This is why every time you hear a story about some hero employee who chased down and beat up a robber, that employee gets fired. Businesses and insurance companies are smart enough to do the math. They would much rather lose whatever meaningless stuff the thief stole than have an employee wind up in a hospital or morgue.
The human life is way ****ing more valuable than stuff.

If you want to prevent yourself from being robbed, there are a ton of other SMART ways to do it that have nothing to do with guns.
Lock your ****ing doors.
Get a deadbolt.
Get a Dog.
Get more lighting, specifically motion sensor lighting.
Get cameras.
Don't carry cash.

All of these things are far more likely to protect you and prevent someone from even trying to rob you in the first place.
Guns are horrible defensive weapons, and if you carry a loaded one around all ****ing day every day, it is virtually assured to be the source of your problem, not the solution to it.


No, if another one gets shot. There are 48,000 shooting deaths in the United States every single solitary year. If we could cut that number in half by reducing the proliferation of guns it prevent 4 times more deaths than your fake 6000.

If we could prevent suicides, it would reduce the gun deaths by over half, and the rope deaths by far more than that. Any ideas?

How many guns do you figure you would have to randomly remove to achieve the results you tout for your plan?

Also, I'm sure your "maybe 4/at least 80" statistics concerning concealed carry aren't fake at all, but do you have something solid where we could read about that?

 

[Rich2018]

you can't be serious

released after committing a mass shooting .... so now want to only discuss the very few every year who meet your definition and live through the shooting ...... but you do NOT want to discuss all the repeat offenders that revolve through our judicial system and commit crime after crime

I guess you spent some time on Google
But how many of those were convicted of a mass shooting and committed another shooting after realease ?

I have no idea what that ramble means

Try reading a little slower, or more likely admit you have no answer
It was casting doubt on the CDC's figures on gun owners who've claim a defensive use of guns
Specifically by querying the number of times those claimed incidents involved discharging (you do know what the means right ?) their gun - and hence generating a police report that could be used as verification

Understand now ?

or a knife, or a physical bully or a loud voice commanding you .... run/hide/comply right ?

If someone pulled a knife on me and running away wasn't an option, absolutely I would comply
No idea what your ramble about bullies and loud voices is supposed to mean.

there is another option - fight back don't be victim

And risk being a casualty as well as a victim - pass
You might value your life lower than the contents of your wallet, I don't.

yes, me ... and many people like me who stand up and won't be victims

I bet no-one even tries to mess with you....at least in your fantasies.

I will never be now

You do not surprise me.

do nothing to stop crime/violence is the anti-gun view

A gun ban will reduce crime a little, but that only a small percentage of crime overall
A gun ban is NOT some panacea to eradicate crime from society
Where is the world do you think your crime-less Utopia exists ?

you want people disarmed

Yes.

to have no way to defend themselves against a criminal/violence person who has superior force

Are you saying that people in the UK and Japan, have NO way to defend themselves ?

me? I'd like to see every law abiding person armed

And every criminal too - pass.