How Ford has saved us from ourselves

[longview]

You said, 'You seem to think my words were based on ignorance' and yet you ask someone to show the math that a Ford lightening can charge in 30 minutes. How can asking that question suggest anything more? Not math. Proof.

That you do not understand the question is very telling!
I ask because the 30 minute change statement
was not about the Ford lighting, but a Tesla with a specialized Tesla charging station, I.e. A misrepresentation!
Asking him to show the math, forced him to admit that the statement was not about the Ford lighting!

 

[longview]

You made this claim.

"In a Tesla stopping at Tesla charging stations, this looks like.
300 miles, 60 to 90 minuets recharge, 300 miles, 60 to 90 minuets recharge, 300 miles, ect"

There you also seemed in your next post to claim that you wouldn't see any real improvements because of physics.

So I provided a link that showed that you can already get a 250 mile charge in less than 30 minutes with a Tesla. While at the same time their are a lot of innovation to make the charging time a lot faster and the range longer. Like for example these examples.

New super-fast electric car batteries will charge up in five minutes

Breakthroughs could lead to the first mass-produced batteries that are able to replenish an electric car as quickly as filling up a petrol or diesel model

www.whatcar.com

China’s Nio Unveils ET7 Sedan with Lidar, 600+ Miles of Range

The EV maker debuted an electric sedan aimed squarely at the Tesla Model S. It boasts impressive tech but won’t be coming to the U.S. for now.

www.caranddriver.com

Also the range of electric cars are already ten times the average daily commute. So people can charge their car at home most of the time while also combine charging time with meal breaks during long trips.

The Ford battery is much larger, and the physics of how much energy can be safely moved in a short period of time, start to come into play.
I really have no doubt that electric drives will win the contest, the question is will complete battery power be part of that solution?

 

[Deuce]

Maybe we should not have an economic system based on the idea that drivers have to spend every last possible second driving.

 

[fortune]

You made this claim.

"In a Tesla stopping at Tesla charging stations, this looks like.
300 miles, 60 to 90 minuets recharge, 300 miles, 60 to 90 minuets recharge, 300 miles, ect"

There you also seemed in your next post to claim that you wouldn't see any real improvements because of physics.

So I provided a link that showed that you can already get a 250 mile charge in less than 30 minutes with a Tesla. While at the same time their are a lot of innovation to make the charging time a lot faster and the range longer. Like for example these examples.

New super-fast electric car batteries will charge up in five minutes

Breakthroughs could lead to the first mass-produced batteries that are able to replenish an electric car as quickly as filling up a petrol or diesel model

www.whatcar.com

China’s Nio Unveils ET7 Sedan with Lidar, 600+ Miles of Range

The EV maker debuted an electric sedan aimed squarely at the Tesla Model S. It boasts impressive tech but won’t be coming to the U.S. for now.

www.caranddriver.com

Also the range of electric cars are already ten times the average daily commute. So people can charge their car at home most of the time while also combine charging time with meal breaks during long trips.

The time it takes to charge is almost irrelevant because you cannot state the percentage of the battery pack that is depleted.
Charging from say 10% full to 50% full is very fast. Charging from 50% to 90% is much slower. So I am ok with taking trips with bladder timed charges.

 

[OrphanSlug]

Wake me up when we are ready to have a serious conversation about what we do just to obtain the raw materials for batteries, let alone produce them, then use them to the point of recycle and disposal of components that cannot be recycled.

If we are exchanging one set of problems for another then the debate is worthwhile.

Perhaps later then we can talk about the power grid needed to deal with a larger portion of the populace plugging their cars in at night.

(Please do not get me wrong, I’d love nothing more than to see our reliance on fossil fuels decline but it seems like we are all in on something that needs more effort before we make a very big mess of things.)

 

[Underestimated]

Realistically, the Ford Lightning looks like most other EV's out there with a comparable number of miles per charge and an 80% charge within 41 minutes. It's nice Ford states there's a 10,000 lb towing capability, but I'm betting most people who buy the Lightning won't be doing much hauling.

Ford says the Lightning will go between 230 and 300 miles on a charge, depending on configuration. Ford is also saying the truck will tow up to 10,000 pounds. In isolation, those numbers sound good. The problem is that Ford hasn't combined the two and quoted any range figures while towing. I'm guessing that's because the numbers won't be good. Admittedly, it's hard to blame Ford for not wanting to reveal its numbers in this area first, because there doesn't seem to be an established industry range-testing procedure for towing and hauling with EVs (let alone any rivals' numbers to compare with). That's as much an industry failing as it is Ford's. Car and Driver estimate that the range under full load may be as little as 100 miles.

https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/news/ford-f150-lightning-substance-towing-ev-truck-wars/

It'll do very well for short range duty, but until more charging infrastructure is available, I don't see it knocking off combustion engines or diesel in the short term.

 

[fortune]

Wake me up when we are ready to have a serious conversation about what we do just to obtain the raw materials for batteries, let alone produce them, then use them to the point of recycle and disposal of components that cannot be recycled.

If we are exchanging one set of problems for another then the debate is worthwhile.

Perhaps later then we can talk about the power grid needed to deal with a larger portion of the populace plugging their cars in at night.

(Please do not get me wrong, I’d love nothing more than to see our reliance on fossil fuels decline but it seems like we are all in on something that needs more effort before we make a very big mess of things.)

No I'd rather let you sleep. I am not worried about that stuff at all

 

[Metric Mouse]

I'll be amazed if Bubba ever wants an F150 Lightning.

I hope he does, but I'm not counting on it.


The Ford people say it's better than gas.

We'll see.

.

If EVs cannot be made to compete with the F150, they will forever remain a minority of market share.

 

[Lord of Planar]

You can already get 250 miles charge under 30 minutes. While at the same time save a lot of time because most of the time you can charge you car at home.

Tesla V3 Supercharger Test: We Find Out Exactly How Fast It Really Is

We take a 2019 Tesla Model 3 long range to the first Tesla V3 Supercharger in New Jersey to test out just how fast the car will charge from zero to 80%.

insideevs.com

There you also are continue to see great advancement in reducing charging time and increasing range.

Developer Of Aluminum-Ion Battery Claims It Charges 60 Times Faster Than Lithium-Ion, Offering EV Range Breakthrough

The graphene aluminum-ion battery cells from the Brisbane-based Graphene Manufacturing Group (GMG) are claimed to charge up to 60 times faster than the best lithium-ion cells and hold more energy.

www.forbes.com

Tesla To Improve Range Of Existing Models: 700 Km (435 Miles)

According to Tesla CEO Elon Musk, the company will introduce improved versions of existing models that will have around 700 km (435 Miles) of range.

insideevs.com

While China already have three minutes battery swaps.

NIO Completes 1 Millionth Battery Swap

NIO announced that the cumulative number of its EV battery swap service in China - the NIO Power - has reached 1 million, as of October 5, 2020.

insideevs-com.cdn.ampproject.org

How much do you get paid for all the corporate quarterly stock advertisements you link?

 

[Lord of Planar]

Please show the math on a Ford lighting getting a 250 mile charge, in under 30 minutes?

I would like to see that too.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Anti-matter is too expensive to make, virtually impossible to collect, and far too dangerous to contain.

In one sense we have been making anti-matter for decades. We create anti-electrons (a.k.a. positrons) for use in medical PET scanners. However, creating a single anti-electron is a far cry from making an anti-matter element. It took CERN until 1995 before they were able to create the very first antihydrogen atom. At present, antimatter costs ~$62.5 trillion per gram. It would cost 83% of the entire planet's GDP just to produce just one gram of antimatter.

Hydrogen would be a better choice.

Actually

You said, 'You seem to think my words were based on ignorance' and yet you ask someone to show the math that a Ford lightening can charge in 30 minutes. How can asking that question suggest anything more? Not math. Proof.

The Ford Truck weighs so much more than the cars that can get a long range on a 30 minute change;. The batteries are accordingly heavier and require more of a charge. No way they are getting an 80% range on a 30 minute chagre with a V-III charger.

Do the math.

 

[fortune]

Actually

The Ford Truck weighs so much more than the cars that can get a long range on a 30 minute change;. The batteries are accordingly heavier and require more of a charge. No way they are getting an 80% range on a 30 minute chagre with a V-III charger.

Do the math.

Good damn hell.
Can you people just stop this shit?
"The ford truck weighs --SO-- much more than the cars." Why in f*** don't you tell us how much the the weight difference is? Compared to WHICH cars? Why is it you dudes think you can just bloviate chit like this without being corected?
I am a car guy... a real gear head... and it is really hard to read this stuff.
Ok now... take a standard V6 F150 can be as light as 4000 lbs an explorer is 4400 lbs, an Expidition is 6300 lbs. OH WAIT! a Fusion weighs 400 pounds less at 3600 lbs.
JUST
STOP
IT
PLEASE!!!

Logic requires either axioms or postulates to be agreed to BEFORE conclusions.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Good damn hell.
Can you people just stop this shit?
"The ford truck weighs --SO-- much more than the cars." Why in f*** don't you tell us how much the the weight difference is? Compared to WHICH cars? Why is it you dudes think you can just bloviate chit like this without being corected?
I am a car guy... a real gear head... and it is really hard to read this stuff.
Ok now... take a standard V6 F150 can be as light as 4000 lbs an explorer is 4400 lbs, an Expidition is 6300 lbs.
JUST
STOP
IT
PLEASE!!!

Logic requires either axioms or postulates to be agreed to BEFORE HAND!!

The EV 150 is over 6500 lbs. The Tesla S about 4600. The cars getting the 30 minute charge are like the Tesla 3. Only about 3650.

But, I'm sure you already know this.

I assume you know mileage is also a factor of wind resistance and mass. Right?

Similar gasoline cars and trucks has the car getting about 50% better mileage. I would expect about the same comparison, meaning the truck needs about the same extra percentage of charge time as gasoline.

 

[fortune]

The EV 150 is over 6500 lbs.

That is WRONG!!!!! the extra 2500 lbs applies to the SAME battery pack no matter which car you pick. I chose weights without a battey pack with a normal V6 engine plus transmission plus differential plus...
Please stop this moronic chit. I can teach you or you can remain juvenile. You want to know, ask. You will never find anyone on this board that has more correct and unbiased answers about EVs than I.

It is up to you.

 

[Lord of Planar]

That is WRONG!!!!! the extra 2500 lbs applies to the SAME battery pack no matter which car you pick. I chose weights without a battey pack with a normal V6 engine plus transmission plus differential plus...
Please stop this moronic chit. I can teach you or you can remain juvenile. You want to know, ask. You will never find anyone on this board that has more correct and unbiased answers about EVs than I.

It is up to you.

Please stop crying.

 

[Lord of Planar]

The smaller capacity EV F-15 takes 44 minutes to charge from 15% to 80% from what I have read.

 

[Lord of Planar]

Curb weight 6,500 lbs, battery 1,800 lbs.

This sucker’s heavy, too. The Lightning weighs 6,500 pounds—more than 35 percent more than the gas-powered model. That’s in large part because of an immovable weight at its core: an 1,800-pound battery. Part of that is just the nature of electric vehicles: The Tesla Model 3 weighs 1,000 pounds more than a Honda Civic. The more luxurious Tesla Model S weighs 1,200 pounds more than a Lexus ES 350.
​

There’s Just One Problem With Ford’s Electric F-150

Joe Biden says the pickup truck is fast. It's heavy, too.

slate.com

 

[longview]

Curb weight 6,500 lbs, battery 1,800 lbs.

​

This sucker’s heavy, too. The Lightning weighs 6,500 pounds—more than 35 percent more than the gas-powered model. That’s in large part because of an immovable weight at its core: an 1,800-pound battery. Part of that is just the nature of electric vehicles: The Tesla Model 3 weighs 1,000 pounds more than a Honda Civic. The more luxurious Tesla Model S weighs 1,200 pounds more than a Lexus ES 350.​

​

There’s Just One Problem With Ford’s Electric F-150

Joe Biden says the pickup truck is fast. It's heavy, too.

slate.com

And no matter what method is used to push the vehicle forward, you have to pay in energy for the extra weight!

 

[jonny5]

Why did so many of you simply not read the article linked to which explains fully how Ford is removing the conservative stigma from EVs?

Because this is a debate forum, not a news site. Anything relevant from the article should be quoted and used to support your own original comments. How does it fully explain, in your own words?

 

[jonny5]

I'll be amazed if Bubba ever wants an F150 Lightning.

I hope he does, but I'm not counting on it.


The Ford people say it's better than gas.

We'll see.

.

If youre commuting, maybe, but then why do you need a pickup? Whats the range like once you actually tow a 10,000 pound boat to the coast for the weekend? Or lug your landscaping trailer around all day? Or run around in the forest hunting. 100 miles? What happens when your battery dies? Cant take a spare can of electricity with you. Maybe tow a generator?

Whats the cost without subsidies? The base F150 costs about 30k and has a range of 500-800 miles, and can refuel in 5 mins at millions of locations.

 

[Lord of Planar]

And no matter what method is used to push the vehicle forward, you have to pay in energy for the extra weight!

Absolutely. Extra mass requires extra energy.

 

[phoenix2020]

Absolutely. Extra mass requires extra energy.

Something is very wrong with the math that is circulating. I haven't seen a lot of specifics on pack energy but Ford said the extended range model would power a 30 kWh/day home for 3 days --> around 100kWh range. That's fine. But 1,800 lbs is absolutely insanely high mass for that little energy. That would put their specific energy at less than half where Tesla is. What are they making these out of, lead acid?! I don't trust the numbers that are circulating.

 

[longview]

Something is very wrong with the math that is circulating. I haven't seen a lot of specifics on pack energy but Ford said the extended range model would power a 30 kWh/day home for 3 days --> around 100kWh range. That's fine. But 1,800 lbs is absolutely insanely high mass for that little energy. That would put their specific energy at less than half where Tesla is. What are they making these out of, lead acid?! I don't trust the numbers that are circulating.

Not sure, Car and Driver, seems to think the standard battery will be ~115 kWh, while the extended range would be ~150kWh.
We Bet F-150 Lightning's Range Is under 100 Miles when Towing at the Max
Tesla's Power Wall 3 is 13.5 kWh and weighs 251 lbs.
That same ratio would place the 115 kWh at 2,138 lbs, and the extended range at 2,788 lbs.
The numbers are fairly close, the real issue is that battery energy density is bad, really bad.
Even counting the horrible Carnot efficiency of a IC engine, Gasoline still has an energy density of 1,171 kWh per pound,
vs the power wall Lithium-ion battery at ~.053Kwh per pound.

 

[phoenix2020]

Not sure, Car and Driver, seems to think the standard battery will be ~115 kWh, while the extended range would be ~150kWh.
We Bet F-150 Lightning's Range Is under 100 Miles when Towing at the Max
Tesla's Power Wall 3 is 13.5 kWh and weighs 251 lbs.
That same ratio would place the 115 kWh at 2,138 lbs, and the extended range at 2,788 lbs.
The numbers are fairly close, the real issue is that battery energy density is bad, really bad.
Even counting the horrible Carnot efficiency of a IC engine, Gasoline still has an energy density of 1,171 kWh per pound,
vs the power wall Lithium-ion battery at ~.053Kwh per pound.

No, no, no - power wall is a terrible example. The smaller the battery the greater proportion of it is spent on power electronics, battery management, enclosure mechanicals, thermal management rather than active material. In something like the Power Wall likely less than 50% of the mass is cell related. In a BEV pack it should be closer to ~80-85%. This is battery pack 101. The F150 pack has to be compared to another BEV battery pack and comparing it to say a Model 3 ~78kWh pack around 650 lbs makes this an absolute pig were it only to be 100kWh or even 115kWh.

150kWh would be closer to the mark although that's still portly... just not life-threateningly obese. I bet they're taking a beating on mass with that low nickel cathode.

 

[longview]

No, no, no - power wall is a terrible example. The smaller the battery the greater proportion of it is spent on power electronics, battery management, enclosure mechanicals, thermal management rather than active material. In something like the Power Wall likely less than 50% of the mass is cell related. In a BEV pack it should be closer to ~80-85%. This is battery pack 101. The F150 pack has to be compared to another BEV battery pack and comparing it to say a Model 3 ~78kWh pack around 650 lbs makes this an absolute pig were it only to be 100kWh or even 115kWh.

150kWh would be closer to the mark although that's still portly... just not life-threateningly obese. I bet they're taking a beating on mass with that low nickel cathode.

It looks to me like the Tesla model 3 battery pack is over 1000 lbs, but with fewer cells I could see the shorter range could weigh as little as 700lbs.
Tesla Model 3

The Long Range version carries 4,416 cells arranged in 96 groups of 46, and weighs[183] 1,060 pounds (480 kg) in a 0.40 m³ volume; a density of 150 Wh/kg.

Now 150 Wh/kg, is 68 Wh/lb, so 115,000 Wh divided by 68 Wh/lb is 1,691 lbs, at the same density of the Tesla 3.
I do not think we are talking about some lower energy density battery.