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Zimmerman's Public Safety Instincts

disquiet_1

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Just a couple of observations-

Reviewing George Zimmerman's behaviour the night he killed Trayvon Martin, it's apparent that every instinct, every calculation he (Zimmerman) made escalated what should have been a benign interaction into a homicide. What he did, or failed to do (like identifying himself to Trayvon, returning to his vehicle, obeying the police dispatcher, etc.) led inexorably to a violent confrontation. Presumably, Neighborhood Watch volunteers exist to protect all residents of a community, which arguably might have included Trayvon Martin, a young person walking on a rainy evening- I'd imagine Zimmerman's first contact might have begun with "Hi-I'm George, with Neighborhood Watch. Do you live here? Are you OK? Where are you heading? Where do your folks live?" It is inconceivable to me that he didn't identify himself.

Why hasn't a representative of the Neighborhood Watch organization been called as a witness, testifying as to the guidelines, protocols and responsibilities of a Neighborhood Watch participant? Zimmerman routinely violated their guidelines by arming himself and, by not obeying a primary duty, to "Observe and Report." Neighborhood Watch forbids interaction between their volunteers and "suspicious" persons.

Every single decision Zimmerman made that night (and his history) verified that he is unsuitable for work in law enforcement, as the State of Virginia found in his application for the police academy.
 

MaggieD

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Every single decision Zimmerman made that night (and his history) verified that he is unsuitable for work in law enforcement, as the State of Virginia found in his application for the police academy.
Do you have any idea how many people are turned down when they apply to a police academy? Come on!

What he showed was that he cared, at least that's the way I view it. He genuinely wanted to help his community. Now. I do think you make a good point with your made-up introduction. If things had gone differently . . . if the coppers had gotten there before Zimmerman felt he had to shoot to save his life . . . he'd have felt pretty damned foolish if he'd found out who he was...a family member (okay, friend) of someone he was supposedly trying to protect.

But being turned down for a job as a LEO? That, in and of itself, means nothing.
 

Lutherf

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Hmm.....Trayvon Martin noticed some creepy guy checking him out so he then decided to check that guy out instead of just keep on heading home. See, that works both ways.
 

ecofarm

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Trayvon's public safety instincts weren't so great.
 

TheGirlNextDoor

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Hmm.....Trayvon Martin noticed some creepy guy checking him out so he then decided to check that guy out instead of just keep on heading home. See, that works both ways.

.....And instead of calling your girlfriend and saying some creepy ass cracker was following you, I bet you'd call the po-po instead. I know I would. Unless of course, I was going to have to explain myself as well.
 

Caine

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Every single decision Zimmerman made that night (and his history) verified that he is unsuitable for work in law enforcement, as the State of Virginia found in his application for the police academy.
He was turned down due to having bad credit...........which is an understandable reason to turn someone down for a law enforcement position, however, it speaks NOTHING of his ability to actually perform the job.

get yourself educated on a topic of which you speak.
 

ttwtt78640

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Just a couple of observations-

Reviewing George Zimmerman's behaviour the night he killed Trayvon Martin, it's apparent that every instinct, every calculation he (Zimmerman) made escalated what should have been a benign interaction into a homicide. What he did, or failed to do (like identifying himself to Trayvon, returning to his vehicle, obeying the police dispatcher, etc.) led inexorably to a violent confrontation. Presumably, Neighborhood Watch volunteers exist to protect all residents of a community, which arguably might have included Trayvon Martin, a young person walking on a rainy evening- I'd imagine Zimmerman's first contact might have begun with "Hi-I'm George, with Neighborhood Watch. Do you live here? Are you OK? Where are you heading? Where do your folks live?" It is inconceivable to me that he didn't identify himself.

Why hasn't a representative of the Neighborhood Watch organization been called as a witness, testifying as to the guidelines, protocols and responsibilities of a Neighborhood Watch participant? Zimmerman routinely violated their guidelines by arming himself and, by not obeying a primary duty, to "Observe and Report." Neighborhood Watch forbids interaction between their volunteers and "suspicious" persons.

Every single decision Zimmerman made that night (and his history) verified that he is unsuitable for work in law enforcement, as the State of Virginia found in his application for the police academy.
While GZ certainly made quite an effort to simply have a "suspicious" person checked out by police, he had a history of doing just that, it was his "calling". To assert that all odd or risky behavior was only on the part of GZ ignores the great mystery of TM's moves. Knowing full well that a "creepy ass cracker" was following and observing TM, he could certainly simply have called police or lost GZ by running to his home, to a neighbor's house or back to the store. Instead TM simply waits about 4 extra minutes, as GZ sits in his vehicle chatting with the dispatcher, staying within a few yards of GZ's parked vehicle (maybe even circling it).
 

CaptinSarcastic

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Do you have any idea how many people are turned down when they apply to a police academy? Come on!

What he showed was that he cared, at least that's the way I view it. He genuinely wanted to help his community. Now. I do think you make a good point with your made-up introduction. If things had gone differently . . . if the coppers had gotten there before Zimmerman felt he had to shoot to save his life . . . he'd have felt pretty damned foolish if he'd found out who he was...a family member (okay, friend) of someone he was supposedly trying to protect.

But being turned down for a job as a LEO? That, in and of itself, means nothing.
Maybe, but then again volunteer firefighters have been convicted of starting fires because they wanted to put them out and be heroes.

We don't know whether his motivations were benign or selfish.

We only know what he said, and how different things he said are incompatible with each other.

I think the jury will be considering the repeated statement of how Zim claimed to reach his gun and the physical problems with that. If the decide he was brandishing the weapon earlier than he said, he will be convicted of murder 2 or manslaughter.

If they believe Zims account, they will acquit.

It didn't help him that he didn't take the stand, but his lawyers clearly felt taking he stand would hurt him worse. The jury should not consider that, but they will.
 

Fisher

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Just a couple of observations-

Reviewing George Zimmerman's behaviour the night he killed Trayvon Martin, it's apparent that every instinct, every calculation he (Zimmerman) made escalated what should have been a benign interaction into a homicide. What he did, or failed to do (like identifying himself to Trayvon, returning to his vehicle, obeying the police dispatcher, etc.) led inexorably to a violent confrontation. Presumably, Neighborhood Watch volunteers exist to protect all residents of a community, which arguably might have included Trayvon Martin, a young person walking on a rainy evening- I'd imagine Zimmerman's first contact might have begun with "Hi-I'm George, with Neighborhood Watch. Do you live here? Are you OK? Where are you heading? Where do your folks live?" It is inconceivable to me that he didn't identify himself.

Why hasn't a representative of the Neighborhood Watch organization been called as a witness, testifying as to the guidelines, protocols and responsibilities of a Neighborhood Watch participant? Zimmerman routinely violated their guidelines by arming himself and, by not obeying a primary duty, to "Observe and Report." Neighborhood Watch forbids interaction between their volunteers and "suspicious" persons.

Every single decision Zimmerman made that night (and his history) verified that he is unsuitable for work in law enforcement, as the State of Virginia found in his application for the police academy.
He was turned down due to his bad credit. I don't think his credit is somehow relevant to what he did or did not do that night.
 

CaptinSarcastic

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While GZ certainly made quite an effort to simply have a "suspicious" person checked out by police, he had a history of doing just that, it was his "calling". To assert that all odd or risky behavior was only on the part of GZ ignores the great mystery of TM's moves. Knowing full well that a "creepy ass cracker" was following and observing TM, he could certainly simply have called police or lost GZ by running to his home, to a neighbor's house or back to the store. Instead TM simply waits about 4 extra minutes, as GZ sits in his vehicle chatting with the dispatcher, staying within a few yards of GZ's parked vehicle (maybe even circling it).
Although Martin had the body of an adult, he was a child, subject to a child's fear. My wife has experienced the feeling of being followed by a perceived threatening person. She desperately wanted to go home but feared that if the person followed her to her home she would be less safe there, not more safe.

Fear is a funny thing and a probably the main factor is so many tragic situations.

If you have ever been pulled over by a cop, you know that the single overriding thing you absolutely need to avoid is making the cop afraid. A cop hat feels fear is going to write a ticket, and if he is more of a Type A than most cops, he will be a big pain in the ass.

Zim had fear, but he also had a Glock. Fear and lethal firepower is no way to go into a situation unless you absolutely have to.

I rarely carry, and I am almost never afraid. If I perceived a threat, I would not arm myself and face that situation unless something very important was riding on it. If I think I need to be armed to do something, I'd think twice about the necessity of doing it.
 

year2late

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Trayvon's public safety instincts weren't so great.
He was 17.

Are you comparing him to an actual adult and holding him to the same standard? My son is 19 now and part of the teen years is helping them learn the lessons. When he got home and relyed the incident to his dad, do you think his dad's first response would have been to engage ZImmerman?

Trayvon was shot dead and sadly will never have an opportunity to learn those lessons as he grows into an adult.
 

Caine

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He was 17.

Are you comparing him to an actual adult and holding him to the same standard? My son is 19 now and part of the teen years is helping them learn the lessons. When he got home and relyed the incident to his dad, do you think his dad's first response would have been to engage ZImmerman?

Trayvon was shot dead and sadly will never have an opportunity to learn those lessons as he grows into an adult.
He should have made better decisions in his teenage years.

Poor decision making causes the death of thousands of teens every year..... just look up the teen vehicle fatality rate..

If we can trust them to make decisions on the roadway with the lives and safety of others, we can trust they won't thug out and attack someone for having the audacity to be curious about their activity.
 

ecofarm

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He was 17.

Are you comparing him to an actual adult and holding him to the same standard? My son is 19 now and part of the teen years is helping them learn the lessons. When he got home and relyed the incident to his dad, do you think his dad's first response would have been to engage ZImmerman?

Trayvon was shot dead and sadly will never have an opportunity to learn those lessons as he grows into an adult.
He thought someone was following him. He became convinced that it was an attacker, his girlfriend suggested it could be a rapist. He decided that he can't go home (presumably he was scared the follower would break into his house to get him) and what does he do? Does he call the cops? No. Does he go to a well lighted area or knock on a neighbor's door? No. He goes to a dark place and attacks the person.

Trayvon attacked a concerned neighbor, ambushed him. He was a danger to any community.
 

Summerwind

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Just a couple of observations-

Reviewing George Zimmerman's behaviour the night he killed Trayvon Martin, it's apparent that every instinct, every calculation he (Zimmerman) made escalated what should have been a benign interaction into a homicide. What he did, or failed to do (like identifying himself to Trayvon, returning to his vehicle, obeying the police dispatcher, etc.) led inexorably to a violent confrontation. Presumably, Neighborhood Watch volunteers exist to protect all residents of a community, which arguably might have included Trayvon Martin, a young person walking on a rainy evening- I'd imagine Zimmerman's first contact might have begun with "Hi-I'm George, with Neighborhood Watch. Do you live here? Are you OK? Where are you heading? Where do your folks live?" It is inconceivable to me that he didn't identify himself.

Why hasn't a representative of the Neighborhood Watch organization been called as a witness, testifying as to the guidelines, protocols and responsibilities of a Neighborhood Watch participant? Zimmerman routinely violated their guidelines by arming himself and, by not obeying a primary duty, to "Observe and Report." Neighborhood Watch forbids interaction between their volunteers and "suspicious" persons.

Every single decision Zimmerman made that night (and his history) verified that he is unsuitable for work in law enforcement, as the State of Virginia found in his application for the police academy.
You are correct and I've wondered the same thing having been part of a NW in Vancouver, WA. We weren't allowed to carry guns, and some of what the calls to the cops were previously (like open garage doors iirc) don't make sense. You just go to the door, ring the doorbell, say, "I'm ladskjflfdj, neighborhood watch, and you left your garage wide open if you care. I'll be on my way now." And that was it, no calls to the cops. WTF

Anyway, I read somewhere he self-appointed himself to a personal version of NW and was not part of the actual organization. I'll see if I can find that and put a link.
 

Caine

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You are correct and I've wondered the same thing having been part of a NW in Vancouver, WA. We weren't allowed to carry guns, and some of what the calls to the cops were previously (like open garage doors iirc) don't make sense. You just go to the door, ring the doorbell, say, "I'm ladskjflfdj, neighborhood watch, and you left your garage wide open if you care. I'll be on my way now." And that was it, no calls to the cops. WTF

Anyway, I read somewhere he self-appointed himself to a personal version of NW and was not part of the actual organization. I'll see if I can find that and put a link.
The fact that he was associated in any way shape or form to the neighborhood watch has absolutely no relevancy to this case in reality.

He was on his way to the store...... he had a CCW permit and thus was carrying as he was legally allowed to do.... are you to suggest that someone with a CCW who joins a neighborhood watch loses their right to be armed when going to the ****ing store?

Ain't that about retarded.
 

ecofarm

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You are correct and I've wondered the same thing having been part of a NW in Vancouver, WA. We weren't allowed to carry guns, and some of what the calls to the cops were previously (like open garage doors iirc) don't make sense. You just go to the door, ring the doorbell, say, "I'm ladskjflfdj, neighborhood watch, and you left your garage wide open if you care. I'll be on my way now." And that was it, no calls to the cops. WTF

Anyway, I read somewhere he self-appointed himself to a personal version of NW and was not part of the actual organization. I'll see if I can find that and put a link.
You obviously know nothing about the case.
 

Summerwind

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The fact that he was associated in any way shape or form to the neighborhood watch has absolutely no relevancy to this case in reality.

He was on his way to the store...... he had a CCW permit and thus was carrying as he was legally allowed to do.... are you to suggest that someone with a CCW who joins a neighborhood watch loses their right to be armed when going to the ****ing store?

Ain't that about retarded.
Well that didn't take long. And yes it does matter, it speaks to a #1 a person who wants to be patrolling in some way and fighting bad guys even if he has to do it outside the system
#2 - It shows he chooses to do things his more "armed" way than the way the police and sheriff's require for actual NW and yet he used the ignorance of most to claim an association that in most people's minds is pretty benign. It shows a level of desired aggressiveness.

Here's the link showing he was not part of an accepted Neighborhood Watch (TM) system.
http://thegrio.com/2012/03/21/zimmerman-not-a-member-of-recognized-neighborhood-watch-organization/
 
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Summerwind

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You obviously know nothing about the case.
George Zimmerman not a member of recognized neighborhood watch organization | theGrio

And you know nothing about the facts apparently.. I'll stay over here, you can wallow in that stink over there. ;)

When 28-year-old George Zimmerman was discovered by Sanford, Florida police standing over the body of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, they accepted Zimmerman’s claim that he killed in self-defense as a neighborhood watch captain. Now, through a statement released by the National Sheriffs’ Association (NSA) — the parent organization of USAonWatch-Neighborhood Watch — it has been revealed that Zimmerman was not a member of any group recognized by the organization. Zimmerman violated the central tenets of Neighborhood Watch by following Martin, confronting him and carrying a concealed weapon.

“In no program that I have ever heard of does someone patrol with a gun in their pocket,” Carmen Caldwell, the Executive Director of Citizens’ Crime Watch of Miami-Dade, told theGrio. “Every city and municipality has their own policies. Here in Miami-Dade we train people only to be the eyes and ears of their communities. Not to follow and most definitely not to carry a weapon.”(snip)
 
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disquiet_1

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He was turned down due to having bad credit...........which is an understandable reason to turn someone down for a law enforcement position, however, it speaks NOTHING of his ability to actually perform the job.

get yourself educated on a topic of which you speak.

I'll readily stipulate that you're correct regarding GZ's credit rating, and also to the fact that many applicants to the police academy are rejected; I mentioned his rejection primarily to illustrate GZ's lifelong interest in a law enforcement career. This would include his martial-arts training and community college course work in Criminal Justice. Additionally, former co-workers, friends and acquaintances have recounted GZ's interest in law enforcement, his desire to "hunt serial killers" and other heroic, fantasy scenarios; police officers I've heard generally describe an interest in public service and a desire to support their communities, although some are often found to be in police work for the wrong reasons.
One writer mentions Trayvon Martin's "Public Safety Instincts" as poor, though I'm not sure what that means.
Another asserts that TM "circled around" to ambush GZ, only one of the several stories he told about that night; this particular theory doesn't comport with the timelines and is unbelievable as GZ's stories tend to be. Review the police interviews, the Sean Hannity interview, etc. GZ is a liar.
Sadly, the prosecution did a poor job, even failing to point out that TM died in the middle of the grass, many feet from the sidewalk where GZ claims he was beaten and head-slammed; his injuries in no way reflect the savage attack he claims to have suffered, and at the very least the lack of blood on clothing, the sidewalk and under TM's nails reflect that. And no, the rain didn't "wash away" the blood.
Unfortunately, I believe the jury could not parse the Manslaughter guidelines without help, which was denied them.
But GZ is a long way from finished with the legal machine and I'm sure everyone looks forward to his testimony, this sad, fearful little man. Perhaps we'll also hear more about his own police record, the domestic abuse/restraining orders, his estrangment from his parents, resisting arrest with violence in 2005, child abuse and, his termination from a "bouncer" job for being over-aggresive with customers. Astonishingly, GZ gets his firearm back.
 

davidtaylorjr

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Just a couple of observations-

Reviewing George Zimmerman's behaviour the night he killed Trayvon Martin, it's apparent that every instinct, every calculation he (Zimmerman) made escalated what should have been a benign interaction into a homicide. What he did, or failed to do (like identifying himself to Trayvon, returning to his vehicle, obeying the police dispatcher, etc.) led inexorably to a violent confrontation. Presumably, Neighborhood Watch volunteers exist to protect all residents of a community, which arguably might have included Trayvon Martin, a young person walking on a rainy evening- I'd imagine Zimmerman's first contact might have begun with "Hi-I'm George, with Neighborhood Watch. Do you live here? Are you OK? Where are you heading? Where do your folks live?" It is inconceivable to me that he didn't identify himself.

Why hasn't a representative of the Neighborhood Watch organization been called as a witness, testifying as to the guidelines, protocols and responsibilities of a Neighborhood Watch participant? Zimmerman routinely violated their guidelines by arming himself and, by not obeying a primary duty, to "Observe and Report." Neighborhood Watch forbids interaction between their volunteers and "suspicious" persons.

Every single decision Zimmerman made that night (and his history) verified that he is unsuitable for work in law enforcement, as the State of Virginia found in his application for the police academy.
Pretty sure you are speculating the facts there. You make it sound as though Zimmerman was within arms distance the whole time he was following Martin.
 

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I'll readily stipulate that you're correct regarding GZ's credit rating, and also to the fact that many applicants to the police academy are rejected; I mentioned his rejection primarily to illustrate GZ's lifelong interest in a law enforcement career. This would include his martial-arts training and community college course work in Criminal Justice. Additionally, former co-workers, friends and acquaintances have recounted GZ's interest in law enforcement, his desire to "hunt serial killers" and other heroic, fantasy scenarios; police officers I've heard generally describe an interest in public service and a desire to support their communities, although some are often found to be in police work for the wrong reasons.
All the attributes you mentioned.... martial arts... community college.... desire to work in law enforcement are NOT a bad thing... would you agree?
And often people say silly things when asked why they want to be in law enforcement...... and wanting to hunt down serial killers isn't necessarily a bad thing either.... its a "tough guy" sounding way of saying he wants to work serious homicide investigations. Thats all...... part of that can be attributed to the glorification of homicide detectives in TV shows and movies.

One writer mentions Trayvon Martin's "Public Safety Instincts" as poor, though I'm not sure what that means.
Another asserts that TM "circled around" to ambush GZ, only one of the several stories he told about that night; this particular theory doesn't comport with the timelines and is unbelievable as GZ's stories tend to be.
I dunno about circling around..... but waiting for him and approaching him from behind definately does. It would have taken him no longer than 1 minute to run home.... yet four minutes later he is attacking Zimmerman.... Odd don't you think?
Review the police interviews, the Sean Hannity interview, etc. GZ is a liar.
How is he a liar? What do you consider a "lie" in this case.... How minor of inconsistencies are you speaking of? Personally, from my own law enforcement experience of just shy of 7 years....... a story told exactly the same without forgetting a single detail multiple times in a row is a made up story. In reality, in a high stress situation like that, people forget some details in the telling and remember them later while possibly forgetting to mention a different detail... Its normal. Happens to police officers in shooting and use of force situations all the time... which has been proven by the event being recorded without their knowledge.

Sadly, the prosecution did a poor job, even failing to point out that TM died in the middle of the grass, many feet from the sidewalk where GZ claims he was beaten and head-slammed;
Because common sense says you often don't die EXACTLY where your body was when receiving a deadly blow.
his injuries in no way reflect the savage attack he claims to have suffered, and at the very least the lack of blood on clothing, the sidewalk and under TM's nails reflect that.
Why would there be blood under TMs nails? Did I miss where there was a claim TM was scratching like a little girl?
Next time you get a nose bleed... lay down on the ground flat on your back IMMEDIATELY and see how much blood comes flowing out of your nose.

Unfortunately, I believe the jury could not parse the Manslaughter guidelines without help, which was denied them.
There was no denial of help. The instructions were given and the court asked if they had a SPECIFIC question... to which the court never got an answer before the verdict.

But GZ is a long way from finished with the legal machine and I'm sure everyone looks forward to his testimony, this sad, fearful little man. Perhaps we'll also hear more about his own police record, the domestic abuse/restraining orders, his estrangment from his parents, resisting arrest with violence in 2005, child abuse and, his termination from a "bouncer" job for being over-aggresive with customers. Astonishingly, GZ gets his firearm back.
And if all that information comes in the trial..... Trayvon Martin's irrelevant information about his background must come in too.

It will be fun to see all of his text messages pulled from his phone, images of marijuana, him smoking marijuana, him holding a gun, texts about him getting a gun, facebook posts about him looking for some codeine to make some "fire ass lean" and acknowledging that Robitussin is weaker than codeine for drug uses........ his suspensions from school..... the list of items found on him at school which include multiple pieces of female jewelry and a screwdriver, his fights at school, marijuana at school....... I think that is all I remember... for now.
 

disquiet_1

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I don't claim to know how close to each other GZ and TM were at various times in the encounter, although TM's phone call with Ms. Jentel does suggest their relative proximity, at that particular moment in time.
 

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Just a couple of observations-

Reviewing George Zimmerman's behaviour the night he killed Trayvon Martin, it's apparent that every instinct, every calculation he (Zimmerman) made escalated what should have been a benign interaction into a homicide. What he did, or failed to do (like identifying himself to Trayvon, returning to his vehicle, obeying the police dispatcher, etc.) led inexorably to a violent confrontation. Presumably, Neighborhood Watch volunteers exist to protect all residents of a community, which arguably might have included Trayvon Martin, a young person walking on a rainy evening- I'd imagine Zimmerman's first contact might have begun with "Hi-I'm George, with Neighborhood Watch. Do you live here? Are you OK? Where are you heading? Where do your folks live?" It is inconceivable to me that he didn't identify himself.

Why hasn't a representative of the Neighborhood Watch organization been called as a witness, testifying as to the guidelines, protocols and responsibilities of a Neighborhood Watch participant? Zimmerman routinely violated their guidelines by arming himself and, by not obeying a primary duty, to "Observe and Report." Neighborhood Watch forbids interaction between their volunteers and "suspicious" persons.

Every single decision Zimmerman made that night (and his history) verified that he is unsuitable for work in law enforcement, as the State of Virginia found in his application for the police academy.
Guilty of violating the publication of Neighborhood Watch? How absurd. Who cares what they think? They have no authority over anything or anyone whatsoever and their rules have no legal weight whatsoever.
 

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The private sector Neighhorhood Watch Association has as it's social policy statement that ALL police should be armed and NO citizen should have a firearm even if sensing danger. In fact, their policy is if you sense danger you should quickly put your gun away so you can't possibly use it. Beyond Neighborhood Watch Association has no authority to tell anyone what to do or not do, who gives a damn what they think with such a truly bizarre total anti-gun rights political and ideological advocacy?

It isn't just that you agree with them that no citizens should have firearms, but you want to make up a law claiming not following your and their ideology should send a person to prison and direct contradiction of law. That type of logic - direct contradiction of law - also was used to lynch African-Americans - ideology triumphs over law.
 
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