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Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit? [W:50]

MaggieD

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Personally, I think Murder 2 is impossible. If that's true, is Manslaughter a possibility?

I've thought that the jury is going to want to find ZImmerman guilty of SOMETHING. If he's found guilty of Manslaughter, he faces 30 years in prison, as I understand it. From the Florida statutes:

(1) The killing of a human being by the act, procurement, or culpable negligence of another, without lawful justification according to the provisions of chapter 776 and in cases in which such killing shall not be excusable homicide or murder, according to the provisions of this chapter, is manslaughter, a felony of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s.775.084.

One of the spins out there is that this has been the prosecution's plan all along. I must admit that, without a plan like this, I can't even imagine why charges were brought.

Caveat: While I think this whole incident is a tragedy, I don't think he's guilty of anything. But I think the jury may well want to find him guilty of something... some lesser charge.


What are your thoughts?

(If anyone so much as MENTIONS 50-ft from the T, 10-ft from the T, THE T!!! I will spin myself into the ground, fly out of my computer screen and haunt them.)
 

ttwtt78640

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Personally, I think Murder 2 is impossible. If that's true, is Manslaughter a possibility?

I've thought that the jury is going to want to find ZImmerman guilty of SOMETHING. If he's found guilty of Manslaughter, he faces 30 years in prison, as I understand it. From the Florida statutes:



One of the spins out there is that this has been the prosecution's plan all along. I must admit that, without a plan like this, I can't even imagine why charges were brought.

Caveat: While I think this whole incident is a tragedy, I don't think he's guilty of anything. But I think the jury may well want to find him guilty of something... some lesser charge.


What are your thoughts?

(If anyone so much as MENTIONS 50-ft from the T, 10-ft from the T, THE T!!! I will spin myself into the ground, fly out of my computer screen and haunt them.)

Much of the argument put forth by the prosecution (and much of the press) concentrates upon convincing the jury (folks) that the severity of the actual injuries that GZ received do not seem life threatening or even serious enough to justify the use of deadly force (evil gun?). What is being ignored (thus far) is that the Florida SYG statute also allows use of deadly force to stop a forcable felony with no mention of any injury threshold at all.

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine
 

MaggieD

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Much of the argument out forth by the prosecution (and much of the press) concentrates upon convincing the jury (folks) that the severity of the actual injuries that GZ received do not seem life threatening or even serious enough to justify the use of deadly force (evil gun?). What is being ignored (thus far) is that the Florida SYG statute also allows use of deadly force to stop a forcable felony with no mention of any injury threshold at all.


Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

Excellent point. I just can't figure this out. I think it's all going to boil down to jury instructions. I've never thought them more important than in this particular case. For instance, finding him guilty of a lesser charge (like manslaughter) might sit well with the jury. But then, would they even know that it subjected him to 30 years in prison? And the SYG statute you've brought up here -- would they even be told about it? Is that allowed during the Defense's closing arguments?

If someone said, "He's going to jail for two years," I'd say, "Well, okay..." But thirty years?? I just cannot figure this out. It is mind-boggling.
 

ttwtt78640

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Excellent point. I just can't figure this out. I think it's all going to boil down to jury instructions. I've never thought them more important than in this particular case. For instance, finding him guilty of a lesser charge (like manslaughter) might sit well with the jury. But then, would they even know that it subjected him to 30 years in prison? And the SYG statute you've brought up here -- would they even be told about it? Is that allowed during the Defense's closing arguments?

If someone said, "He's going to jail for two years," I'd say, "Well, okay..." But thirty years?? I just cannot figure this out. It is mind-boggling.

Manslaughter sentencing laws (guidelines?) in Florida indicate that the use of a gun and/or the victim being a minor will guarantee a minimum of 25 years in prison. I personally detest the ploy of the state over-charging (in hopes of getting a guilty plea or conviction on a lesser included offense) and, on that basis alone, would vote to acquit if the state attempted such a thing and then could not prove the initial charge(s).
 

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

In Zimmerman ..."story"...Travon Martin said things like ..."you're gonna die tonight"........when he shot the teen Travon said...."you got me"...???

I may believe that if Travon was 2 year old running around with his GI JOE action figure.

But no teenager talks like that ....when people get shot ...I truly doubt they .."inform the shooter" ..of their situation by saying ...."ahhh you got me"

Zimmerman shot the kid and fabricated the story .....and of course the dumb-ass police wanted to believe it because Travon is black.
 

buck

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Personally, I think Murder 2 is impossible. If that's true, is Manslaughter a possibility?

I've thought that the jury is going to want to find ZImmerman guilty of SOMETHING. If he's found guilty of Manslaughter, he faces 30 years in prison, as I understand it. From the Florida statutes:



One of the spins out there is that this has been the prosecution's plan all along. I must admit that, without a plan like this, I can't even imagine why charges were brought.

Caveat: While I think this whole incident is a tragedy, I don't think he's guilty of anything. But I think the jury may well want to find him guilty of something... some lesser charge.


What are your thoughts?

(If anyone so much as MENTIONS 50-ft from the T, 10-ft from the T, THE T!!! I will spin myself into the ground, fly out of my computer screen and haunt them.)

I believe that was their reason for doing it the way they did. I believe there is a psychological effect on the jury that will allow them to see the manslaughter as just not a big deal, especially when compared to the M2 they will find him innocent of. I believe it makes it easier for a jury to convict of manslaughter.
 

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

In Zimmerman ..."story"...Travon Martin said things like ..."you're gonna die tonight"........when he shot the teen Travon said...."you got me"...???

I may believe that if Travon was 2 year old running around with his GI JOE action figure.

But no teenager talks like that ....when people get shot ...I truly doubt they .."inform the shooter" ..of their situation by saying ...."ahhh you got me"

Zimmerman shot the kid and fabricated the story .....and of course the dumb-ass police wanted to believe it because Travon is black.

I would hope you're wrong about the police wanting to believe it because Trayvon is black. But I think that's the crux of the public's disdain for everything about this case. Every weekend in Chicago, at least a half-dozen black men (sometimes children) are murdered -- by other blacks. Where is the disdain for those tragedies? Why, when a black man is killed by a nonblack, is "the community up in arms...threatening riots...etc.? Where is the outrage for the others?
 

buck

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Manslaughter sentencing laws (guidelines?) in Florida indicate that the use of a gun and/or the victim being a minor will guarantee a minimum of 25 years in prison. I personally detest the ploy of the state over-charging (in hopes of getting a guilty plea or conviction on a lesser included offense) and, on that basis alone, would vote to acquit if the state attempted such a thing and then could not prove the initial charge(s).

I don't believe the defense will be able to mention the sentencing guidelines for manslaughter, so the jury will not realize how long the setnece is until after the trial.

When/if the defense moves for directed verdict, can the judge, assuming she feels the case was not proven, remove the M2 charge and just leave the manslaugher charge? Or is that not possible?
 

Oceandan

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Unless I am wrong, I believe the prosecution needs to NOT only prove it was 2nd degree murder but that George Zimmerman could NOT be using self defense. We've not even brought into discussion Florida's SYG law.

We can discuss/argue/debate the precursors ad infinitum. The PERTINENT facts, at least for me are, George Zimmerman has a broken nose, he's on the ground taking what one witness testified as an MMA style "ground and pound". At that point he has the right to draw his weapon and dispatch the intruder.

I DO KNOW in the state I reside presently, it doesn't even take that much. I don't believe the jury will find George Zimmerman guilty of anything, nor do I think they should.
 

MaggieD

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

I don't believe the jury will find George Zimmerman guilty of anything, nor do I think they should.

I hope you're right. I really do.
 

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Personally, I think Murder 2 is impossible. If that's true, is Manslaughter a possibility?

I've thought that the jury is going to want to find ZImmerman guilty of SOMETHING. If he's found guilty of Manslaughter, he faces 30 years in prison, as I understand it. From the Florida statutes:



One of the spins out there is that this has been the prosecution's plan all along. I must admit that, without a plan like this, I can't even imagine why charges were brought.

Caveat: While I think this whole incident is a tragedy, I don't think he's guilty of anything. But I think the jury may well want to find him guilty of something... some lesser charge.


What are your thoughts?

(If anyone so much as MENTIONS 50-ft from the T, 10-ft from the T, THE T!!! I will spin myself into the ground, fly out of my computer screen and haunt them.)


I agree that GZ is not guilty of anything. I also believe he is being prosecuted for political reasons only. It was not until the black community exerted pressure was he even charged with anything. And now, the prosecution has backed itself into a corner. They now attempt to convict an innocent man for what purpose? To avoid racial violence which is sure to unfold, should he be acquitted. It is a mess that should have never made it to the court room. Justice (or lack thereof) by racial intimidation. A very sad state of affairs indeed.
 

Oceandan

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Egads I can't believe I'm referencing "the times" but they were the best information. (-;
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/04/12/u...ond-degree-murder-charge-in-florida.html?_r=0

It appears the Judge, along with the lawyers on both sides, will determine if the jury has the option of a lesser charge. At this point, based on the evidence provided so far, if I'm the defense I STRENUOUSLY object (lol thank you Demi Moore from "A Few Good Men") to the option of the lesser charge of manslaughter.
 

CanadaJohn

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Personally, I think Murder 2 is impossible. If that's true, is Manslaughter a possibility?

I've thought that the jury is going to want to find ZImmerman guilty of SOMETHING. If he's found guilty of Manslaughter, he faces 30 years in prison, as I understand it. From the Florida statutes:



One of the spins out there is that this has been the prosecution's plan all along. I must admit that, without a plan like this, I can't even imagine why charges were brought.

Caveat: While I think this whole incident is a tragedy, I don't think he's guilty of anything. But I think the jury may well want to find him guilty of something... some lesser charge.


What are your thoughts?

(If anyone so much as MENTIONS 50-ft from the T, 10-ft from the T, THE T!!! I will spin myself into the ground, fly out of my computer screen and haunt them.)

Is it possible for the judge in this case to instruct the jury that they could convict Zimmerman of a lesser charge? I thought that the prosecution had specifically refused to negotiate a plea deal at a lesser charge earlier in the proceedings. And if the judge does offer this way out, isn't that grounds for an appeal?

In addition, what's happened to the issue of "stand your ground" - I don't recall that being adjudicated yet - is that still up for a decision by this jury or the judge?
 

MaggieD

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Is it possible for the judge in this case to instruct the jury that they could convict Zimmerman of a lesser charge? I thought that the prosecution had specifically refused to negotiate a plea deal at a lesser charge earlier in the proceedings. And if the judge does offer this way out, isn't that grounds for an appeal?

In addition, what's happened to the issue of "stand your ground" - I don't recall that being adjudicated yet - is that still up for a decision by this jury or the judge?

Well, I think the prosecution can always change their mind about a plea deal; though I'm not sure. Re the SYG thingie -- if I remember correctly, the defense elected not to have a SYG hearing. I just don't know how that comes into play...
 

WCH

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Excellent point. I just can't figure this out. I think it's all going to boil down to jury instructions. I've never thought them more important than in this particular case. For instance, finding him guilty of a lesser charge (like manslaughter) might sit well with the jury. But then, would they even know that it subjected him to 30 years in prison? And the SYG statute you've brought up here -- would they even be told about it? Is that allowed during the Defense's closing arguments?

If someone said, "He's going to jail for two years," I'd say, "Well, okay..." But thirty years?? I just cannot figure this out. It is mind-boggling.

He's a sacrificial lamb for the sake of preserving White guilt in this country.

Look at how the MSM and the race baiters have twisted the plot from the very beginning.
 

WCH

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Well, I think the prosecution can always change their mind about a plea deal; though I'm not sure. Re the SYG thingie -- if I remember correctly, the defense elected not to have a SYG hearing. I just don't know how that comes into play...

Depending on how the trial goes, they can still bring it in.
 

year2late

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Much of the argument put forth by the prosecution (and much of the press) concentrates upon convincing the jury (folks) that the severity of the actual injuries that GZ received do not seem life threatening or even serious enough to justify the use of deadly force (evil gun?). What is being ignored (thus far) is that the Florida SYG statute also allows use of deadly force to stop a forcable felony with no mention of any injury threshold at all.



Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

You keep missing the point.

It may be less about the injuries not being life threatening and MORE about whether George lied about what happened. If George lied about how the injuries happened, they would be less inclined to believe his version about how the altercation happened.

So, Zimmermans words will have to closely resemble the physical evidence. This is what I have been anxious to see all along.

Even though I believe that Zimmerman was the only one who could have prevented this from happening, I want to believe that he is telling the truth. But 30 years of ICU nursing and 20 years of motherhood tell me that those injuries to the back of the head are not consistent with his story. But that is for an expert in trauma or such to figure out.

So repeat after me, it is not about the story of how the injuries occurred and the injuries......it is about whether he lied about how things happened.

And Maggie, something like manslaughter sounds more like my vision of what happened "culpable negligence" sounds interestingly correct. One thing to follow the dude. It took a different mindset to follow the dude when you thought he was armed (hand in waistbelt comments while circling car). It just seems like if he thought the guy was armed...it was clearcut POLICE territory.

I am anxious to hear further testimony. Was murder 2 strategy to get a lesser charge? I have no issue believing that.
 

Oceandan

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

You keep missing the point.

It may be less about the injuries not being life threatening and MORE about whether George lied about what happened. If George lied about how the injuries happened, they would be less inclined to believe his version about how the altercation happened.

So, Zimmermans words will have to closely resemble the physical evidence. This is what I have been anxious to see all along.

Even though I believe that Zimmerman was the only one who could have prevented this from happening, I want to believe that he is telling the truth. But 30 years of ICU nursing and 20 years of motherhood tell me that those injuries to the back of the head are not consistent with his story. But that is for an expert in trauma or such to figure out.

So repeat after me, it is not about the story of how the injuries occurred and the injuries......it is about whether he lied about how things happened.

And Maggie, something like manslaughter sounds more like my vision of what happened "culpable negligence" sounds interestingly correct. One thing to follow the dude. It took a different mindset to follow the dude when you thought he was armed (hand in waistbelt comments while circling car). It just seems like if he thought the guy was armed...it was clearcut POLICE territory.

I am anxious to hear further testimony. Was murder 2 strategy to get a lesser charge? I have no issue believing that.

LOL Why do so many keep going back to "George Zimmerman followed Trayvon". NO HE DID NOT! The EVIDENCE in the case support same. Stop blindly accepting the FALSE narrative proffered by the blamestream media, it's demeaning.
 

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Personally, I think Murder 2 is impossible. If that's true, is Manslaughter a possibility?

I've thought that the jury is going to want to find ZImmerman guilty of SOMETHING. If he's found guilty of Manslaughter, he faces 30 years in prison, as I understand it. From the Florida statutes:



One of the spins out there is that this has been the prosecution's plan all along. I must admit that, without a plan like this, I can't even imagine why charges were brought.

Caveat: While I think this whole incident is a tragedy, I don't think he's guilty of anything. But I think the jury may well want to find him guilty of something... some lesser charge.


What are your thoughts?

(If anyone so much as MENTIONS 50-ft from the T, 10-ft from the T, THE T!!! I will spin myself into the ground, fly out of my computer screen and haunt them.)

This trial is clearly showing that he isn't guilty of anything. The whole case is a joke. If he is found guilty for ANYTHING I have lost all faith in the American Justice System.
 

ttwtt78640

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

You keep missing the point.

It may be less about the injuries not being life threatening and MORE about whether George lied about what happened. If George lied about how the injuries happened, they would be less inclined to believe his version about how the altercation happened.

So, Zimmermans words will have to closely resemble the physical evidence. This is what I have been anxious to see all along.

Even though I believe that Zimmerman was the only one who could have prevented this from happening, I want to believe that he is telling the truth. But 30 years of ICU nursing and 20 years of motherhood tell me that those injuries to the back of the head are not consistent with his story. But that is for an expert in trauma or such to figure out.

So repeat after me, it is not about the story of how the injuries occurred and the injuries......it is about whether he lied about how things happened.

And Maggie, something like manslaughter sounds more like my vision of what happened "culpable negligence" sounds interestingly correct. One thing to follow the dude. It took a different mindset to follow the dude when you thought he was armed (hand in waistbelt comments while circling car). It just seems like if he thought the guy was armed...it was clearcut POLICE territory.

I am anxious to hear further testimony. Was murder 2 strategy to get a lesser charge? I have no issue believing that.

The bolded is your entire problem with comprehending anything else. Do you seriously doubt that TM inflicted injuries upon GZ prior to the shooting, while GZ did not inflict any injuries upon TM prior to the shooting? The evidence, both physical and witness accounts, have yet to indicate that GZ attacked TM but do support the "theory" that TM attacked GZ. Did TM believe that he had reason to do so? Who knows, but this trial is not about whether GZ upset or disrespected TM, but whether GZ committed a felony prompting TM to attack him.
 

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

I would hope you're wrong about the police wanting to believe it because Trayvon is black. But I think that's the crux of the public's disdain for everything about this case. Every weekend in Chicago, at least a half-dozen black men (sometimes children) are murdered -- by other blacks. Where is the disdain for those tragedies? Why, when a black man is killed by a nonblack, is "the community up in arms...threatening riots...etc.? Where is the outrage for the others?

Why are white people so troubled by what other groups do among themselves? Your argument is misguided on several fronts:
1) who says blacks like being killed by other blacks ....blame the media for ignoring those events
2) but let's say they had no reaction when they kill each other .....why is that a bother to whites? This is much like the "N" word ....not for the life of me can I understand why whites are so pained because blacks use the "N" word with each other ....and they (whites) don't get to freely use it!!

But to realistically answer your question here is the rub with Travon case .....you don't want to set a president where vigilantes can walk around with guns ...pick a fight and kill somebody ...and then claim they are standing their ground. And blacks understand ....those laws will never work for them.

The argument is ...no matter Zimmerman's role was ....he had a right to follow Travon with a gun ......DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD LIKE THAT???
In my view view he stalked the kid and Travon was the one standing his ground ....the argument that Zimmerman had injuries ...or was on the ground getting beat up ...is irrelevant!!!

Zimmerman's story ...in Travon's death ....to a friendly police force ...who happily sent him home ....comes right out of a comic book!!
 
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MaggieD

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Why are white people so troubled by what other groups do among themselves? Your argument is misguided on several fronts:
1) who says blacks like being killed by other blacks ....blame the media for ignoring those events
2) but let's say they had no reaction when they kill each other .....why is that a bother to whites? This is much like the "N" word ....not for the life of me can I understand why whites are so pained because blacks use the "N" word with each other ....and they (whites) don't get to freely use it!!

But to realistically answer your question here is the rub with Travon case .....you don't want to set a president where vigilantes can walk around with guns ...pick a fight and kill somebody ...and then claim they are standing their ground. And blacks understand ....those laws will never work for them.

The argument is ...no matter Zimmerman's role was ....he had a right to follow Travon with a gun ......DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD LIKE THAT???
In my view view he stalked the kid and Travon was the one standing his ground ....the argument that Zimmerman had injuries ...or was on the ground getting beat up ...is irrelevant!!!

As to your take on the case, I can't say I disagree with you. It's like they were BOTH standing their ground.

Your remark about TYG never working for blacks is poignant. And I understand exactly what you mean, as sad as it is.

One thing I will disagree with you (strongly) about is blacks using the word nigger and whites thinking it is TOTALLY inappropriate for them to use it. I think it's a horrible word. I don't think there's a stronger racial epithet in the English language. For blacks to think it's acceptable to change its definition and use it on each other is wrong, in my opinion. If they feel that strongly about the word (and I do), then they shouldn't use it. It shouldn't be like some secret language -- like a secret handshake or something. It is a horrible word. If I were black, I'd feel like I'd been assaulted if someone called me that. Like I'd been slapped in the face. It's a word that should go where it belongs -- into oblivion.
 

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

Why are white people so troubled by what other groups do among themselves? Your argument is misguided on several fronts:
1) who says blacks like being killed by other blacks ....blame the media for ignoring those events
2) but let's say they had no reaction when they kill each other .....why is that a bother to whites? This is much like the "N" word ....not for the life of me can I understand why whites are so pained because blacks use the "N" word with each other ....and they (whites) don't get to freely use it!!

But to realistically answer your question here is the rub with Travon case .....you don't want to set a president where vigilantes can walk around with guns ...pick a fight and kill somebody ...and then claim they are standing their ground. And blacks understand ....those laws will never work for them.

The argument is ...no matter Zimmerman's role was ....he had a right to follow Travon with a gun ......DO YOU WANT TO LIVE IN A WORLD LIKE THAT???
In my view view he stalked the kid and Travon was the one standing his ground ....the argument that Zimmerman had injuries ...or was on the ground getting beat up ...is irrelevant!!!

Zimmerman's story ...in Travon's death ....to a friendly police force ...who happily sent him home ....comes right out of a comic book!!

If mindsets such as demonstrated above, are allowed to foment, we are forever lost as a society. The ramifications of the above are that a minority population can freely commit crimes including murder and nothing will be done.

There's NOTHING "comical" about a young man dying. To even hallucinate same is reprehensible.
 

Josie

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Re: Zimmerman: The Prosecution's Gambit?

In Zimmerman ..."story"...Travon Martin said things like ..."you're gonna die tonight"........when he shot the teen Travon said...."you got me"...???

I may believe that if Travon was 2 year old running around with his GI JOE action figure.

But no teenager talks like that ....when people get shot ...I truly doubt they .."inform the shooter" ..of their situation by saying ...."ahhh you got me"

Zimmerman shot the kid and fabricated the story .....and of course the dumb-ass police wanted to believe it because Travon is black.

So what actually happened?
 
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