Zimbabwe, the land of dying children (1 Viewer)

[jujuman13]

Such is the result of Chinese support for a Terrorist group.
Taken that some 80% may be propaganda, the remaining 20% is still horrific.
Link
Zimbabwe, the land of dying children - Sunday Times - Times Online

 

[Red_Dave]

Such is the result of Chinese support for a Terrorist group.
Taken that some 80% may be propaganda, the remaining 20% is still horrific.
Link
Zimbabwe, the land of dying children - Sunday Times - Times Online

Maybe now would be a time to start arming and training the Zimbabwean opossition rather then selling arms to Mugabe [with a little help from the tax payer]. Zimbabwe is a country in need of regime change if ever there was one.Shame theres no oil.

 

[cherokee]

Maybe now would be a time to start arming and training the Zimbabwean opossition rather then selling arms to Mugabe [with a little help from the tax payer]. Zimbabwe is a country in need of regime change if ever there was one.Shame theres no oil.

It’s Africa.
Even if they did have oil no one will care......

 

[jujuman13]

RED DAVE
HOW DARE YOU?
You as a Maoist Communist actually propose the overthrow of a comrade in the struggle against Western Imperialism.
Comrade Mugabe was financed and supported with weaponry by his Chinese comrades during their heroic struggle to gain control of what was then Rhodesia, now renamed Zimbabwe.
The Chinese comrades have continued to support comrade Mugabe throughout his tenure as the legally and democratically elected, Leader and Prime Minister of Zimbabwe ever since the white running dogs of capitalism were expelled from being in control.
And yet, here you are, actually espousing the overthrow of this shining example of Maoistic Communism.
Shame on you Sir, shame on you.
This treacherous act will be reported to Bejing.

 

[Red_Dave]

RED DAVE
HOW DARE YOU?
You as a Maoist Communist actually propose the overthrow of a comrade in the struggle against Western Imperialism.
Comrade Mugabe was financed and supported with weaponry by his Chinese comrades during their heroic struggle to gain control of what was then Rhodesia, now renamed Zimbabwe.
The Chinese comrades have continued to support comrade Mugabe throughout his tenure as the legally and democratically elected, Leader and Prime Minister of Zimbabwe ever since the white running dogs of capitalism were expelled from being in control.
And yet, here you are, actually espousing the overthrow of this shining example of Maoistic Communism.
Shame on you Sir, shame on you.
This treacherous act will be reported to Bejing.

I wasnt aware of that. I seam to recall criticiseing chairman Mao for not giveing the chinease people control of resources but if you insist. As for Mugabe "driveing out the white running dogs of capitalism" It should be noted that he,s been very good for brittish buissness as the good people at BAE systems will tell you. As are there other buissness partners in china.

 

[Medussa]

Such is the result of Chinese support for a Terrorist group.
Taken that some 80% may be propaganda, the remaining 20% is still horrific.
Link
Zimbabwe, the land of dying children - Sunday Times - Times Online

What do you see as propaganda and what as fact? I think it's an important question, it will give me an idea of how doubtful people are when reading abt Zim.

One thing I don't agree with is the number of illegal immigrants, I think it's more than just 3 million that's milling around in my country. It is impossible for us to estimate how many. It was shown at Beitbrug how people literally just ran for the border and crawl underneath the wires/fence... hmmm nice, as if we don't have enough of them.

Seems like Zim is heading for another Operation Murambatsvina.

Zim warns of new slum clearance : Mail & Guardian Online

 

[cherokee]

What do you see as propaganda and what as fact? I think it's an important question, it will give me an idea of how doubtful people are when reading abt Zim.

One thing I don't agree with is the number of illegal immigrants, I think it's more than just 3 million that's milling around in my country. It is impossible for us to estimate how many. It was shown at Beitbrug how people literally just ran for the border and crawl underneath the wires/fence... hmmm nice, as if we don't have enough of them.

Seems like Zim is heading for another Operation Murambatsvina.

Zim warns of new slum clearance : Mail & Guardian Online

Medussa, It's good to see you again. I've missed reading your posts.

 

[Medussa]

Medussa, It's good to see you again. I've missed reading your posts.

Thanks man, I needed a break from all the wise-assess on this site

 

[Jay R]

I would welcome the decision to throw the UK into an assault on such a man and his regime, and yet I know that the only coverage it would muster would be condemnation in the UN and the screams of liberals protesting against war outside Parliament.

As has already been demonstrated many times, the post-war sentiment of 'never again' was a hollow sham. Never again would we tolerate a genocide of western Europeans, but anyone else is still fair game.

You've been away Medussa? I haven't been posting much myself. Welcome back then.

 

[Iriemon]

As long as this administration is in power, my recommendation to the Zimbabweans is to make insulting comments about the US and say you have WMDs. That seems to be the only way this administration determines a nation is in need of "humanitarian" intervention.

 

[RadioBoy]

This is rather odd, actually. I attend school with a guy from Zimbabwe, and we've grown rather close. Recently at an amnesty event, they brought up Zimbabwe, and the horrible 'massacres' occuring throughout the country.

And here's the good part; Tarique had never even heard of these things. He'll admit that the leader is corrupt, and that most of the national wealth is used for his own personal needs... but, truly, life isn't that different for him or his family than it is for him in the US.

I just find it to be a strange irony that even a citizen of Zimbabwe has no idea what certain international relief organizations and activist groups are trying to 'help' with.

 

[Jay R]

Without wishing to cast aspersions upon your friend but has it occured to you that maybe he and his family could be part of the 6million that Mr. Mugabe is happy with? The ones not being driven from their homes? Did it occur to you to perhaps consider that, being as your friend's family are in a position to send him to school in the US and the Zimbabwean government is punishing the poorest members of its society, that perhaps his opinion could be slightly less than representative?

 

[RadioBoy]

It has occurred, and I'm certainly not implying that there's nothing happening... but I do know for a fact that he is certainly not part of the upper class (he's on a full ride scholarship, and his story of how he got the oppurtunity it actually a great one... but not one I'm going to share without his consent).

The leader of that nation is crazy; he'll testify to that. However, he also thinks most of the figures these organizations throw around are absolutely ridiculous.

 

[Medussa]

I would welcome the decision to throw the UK into an assault on such a man and his regime, and yet I know that the only coverage it would muster would be condemnation in the UN and the screams of liberals protesting against war outside Parliament.

I agree partially to this, as soon as any European country especially gets involved with this, there will be outcries, "the bastards trying to gain land and oppress Africa once again". I see how it goes in SA, sorry people but racism and cultural differences just can't be left out of this, Africa is not like other places and we def work with a different set of rules here. It's not as clean-cut as people might think. This is just my opinion and I also ask myself am I really looking at this objectively or do I look more with sorrow and heartfelt to my neighbours, than people halfway across the globe with serious national problems of their own?

As has already been demonstrated many times, the post-war sentiment of 'never again' was a hollow sham. Never again would we tolerate a genocide of western Europeans, but anyone else is still fair game.

I agree, those words of 'never again blah blah' is utter horse pukey. To oppose or support a dictator is more abt economics these day. That makes it so much harder.

You've been away Medussa? I haven't been posting much myself. Welcome back then.

Not really, bit of traveling for work as usual. But mostly I don't like many of the egotistical comments that I see on the site. I have no right to just blatantly tell people they are imbeciles with their heads up their arses. So I stayed away for some time, I see some things just don't change though... Besides I'm probably one of the few complete outsiders when it comes to the conflict in the Middle East, arguements between Europeans and Americans etc. Though that is entertaining to read hehe, looks like toddlers fighting abt whose got the biggest muscles and biggest bicycle hahaha! I've been tempted to just comment "Whip em out boys and let's get a ruler" :lol:

 

[Medussa]

I wasn't sure what to reply to this as I def don't agree with this. I'm not a Zimbabwean and maybe, possibly my government is lying to me as well. Maybe, possibly ALL the media that I read and hear abt Zim is nonsense. Do I believe that? No.

Please take note, I'm not picking on you for your reply, but I would like some clarity. So don't take offence if I come off a bit brusque.

This is rather odd, actually. I attend school with a guy from Zimbabwe, and we've grown rather close. Recently at an amnesty event, they brought up Zimbabwe, and the horrible '

massacres'

occuring throughout the country.

I would like to hear things that says otherwise. Many have been killed, denying that is insane. Millions have fled the country, that can't be overlooked.

And here's the good part; Tarique had never even heard of these things. He'll admit that the leader is corrupt, and that most of the national wealth is used for his own personal needs... but, truly, life isn't that different for him or his family than it is for him in the US.

Hmmmm this threw me a bit. If he is part of the upper class then maybe... but you said that he's not. I met two Zimbabwean women in 2004, they came over to meet the one lady's daughter at Johannesburg International (which changed to OR Tambo last year) and do some 'shopping', and by that I mean t-shirts, shorts, underwear, a tv, and a ceiling fan. They said "everybody are millionaires these days, but it means nothing", "a luxurious holiday is a holiday coming to South Africa". I must add that the one lady got her Rand notes on the black market as she couldn't get our currency elsewhere, she took a huge risk but was lucky, what the other woman did, I can't remember. Zim dollar is worthless and I did post the exchange rate in the jokes section last year. I laughed out loud when they told me the amount of money they had with them and all the things they wanted to buy. Seriously, I had tears from laughter, they had no idea what things cost here and there was no way they could buy anything electrical (except a toaster) with the money they had.
As for standard of living... Sorry, but I feel the two can't be compared. Empty shops that doesn't even keep bread and ques and ques of people wanting to buy petrol. I'll give you articles for all of these a bit later on.

I just find it to be a strange irony that even a citizen of Zimbabwe has no idea what certain international relief organizations and activist groups are trying to 'help' with.

Kidding right? But then again, I might, possibly, maybe be getting wrong media coverage from Zim. Maybe it's all roses and plush pillows over there...

It has occurred, and I'm certainly not implying that there's nothing happening... but I do know for a fact that he is certainly not part of the upper class (he's on a full ride scholarship, and his story of how he got the oppurtunity it actually a great one... but not one I'm going to share without his consent).

Now you see, this is where all sorts of questions go through my mind. Did his family suffer due to land redistributions? Did they perhaps benefit from land redistributions? Are they making an income from farming? Whether they are farming or have somebody managing it for them? Are they in technical or professional services? Are they in the high northern part of the country? These are just some of the quick things that I ponder about. I'm really curious and intriqued.

I quote:

Francis Makoni has spent most of the past seven years away from his home in Zimbabwe. A sports scholarship took him to Manchester University where he graduated with a degree in physical education. Now he’s completing a Masters at Wits University.

It’s an expensive education, but one his family can afford. The only problem is they have to pay for it in rands: “Forex is non-existent, there’s no forex whatsoever in Zim. You talk to your bank manager … but when you need R20 000 he will only give you R200”.

This makes Francis a poor man in a foreign country, and a loner on campus. It also makes it difficult to study: “You’ve got so many things on your mind, you can’t concentrate on anything.”

Now remember, this young man is talking abt Rand, not Dollar.

One in eight students at Rhodes (at Grahamstown in South Africa) is Zimbabwean, so when the currency crisis hit, and students couldn’t convert their money into rands to pay their fees, the university took action. In about April last year, there were 584 Zimbabwean students at the Grahamstown campus. Two-hundred and fifty-two had paid their fees in full at the beginning of the year. But 332 owed R2,9 million.

Both quotes are from this article: Carte Blanche

Again Rand, not Dollar. I'm not sure what his scholarship actually covers, but I'm really beginning to wonder abt his quality of life or livingstandards. And again, I'm wondering and doubting because I don't know, and because I'm not convinced.

The leader of that nation is crazy; he'll testify to that. However, he also thinks most of the figures these organizations throw around are absolutely ridiculous.

I've heard and seen numerous times how even their own media can't be trusted. But then maybe, possibly, we are all being lied to and Zim is peachy and blossoming with economic growth and the sitizens are jumping from joy in the streets.

 

[RadioBoy]

Like I said, I'm not trying to completely discount what is being said here; rather, I'm trying to say that, according to him, these figures are blown way out of proportion.

I may have overstepped a bit in saying his life in Zimbabwe is not so different from that here in the US. I asked him a bit about it just a few hours, trying to gather a little bit more information about the place... because, to be entirely honest, he knows a hell of a lot more about life over there than I do.

From his description, he lives in a rural farming area, and his family manages different plots of land, leasing and such. The Zimbabwean equivalent of supermarket is much more likely to be out of stock with items like milk or bread, and prices can skyrocket during different parts of the year; and, as such, you have to store your own and prepare for shortages.

Things may run out very quickly, so some wait around all day for new items to be put out for display. He put a lot of emphasis on this; I'll ask more pointed questions, if you want.

I'm truly not trying to 'debate' in a traditional sense; I honestly thought it was interesting reading this, and then hearing Tarique's opinion on what he read. Keep in mind, his family has lived there for more than five generations, on the same land... he has a considerable family history within the country.

Regarding your comments on the media in Zimbabwe, I suppose it's altogether not unlikely that a considerable portion of the media may be government controlled. However, given his family history and time spent in Zimbabwe, I very much doubt that citizens would be completely unaware of their government's actions.

Again, I would be happy to ask more questions and put responses up. Don't take me as being openly antagonistic, here; I'd much prefer if I were interpreted as playing more of a 'devil's advocate' role.

 

[Red_Dave]

I would welcome the decision to throw the UK into an assault on such a man and his regime, and yet I know that the only coverage it would muster would be condemnation in the UN and the screams of liberals protesting against war outside Parliament.

As has already been demonstrated many times, the post-war sentiment of 'never again' was a hollow sham. Never again would we tolerate a genocide of western Europeans, but anyone else is still fair game.

You've been away Medussa? I haven't been posting much myself. Welcome back then.

I doubt it,d be that tricky to get U.N aproval for action military action in Zim. Its member states that hinder humanitarian intervention rather than the U.N proper. The UN proper has always been quick to call for intervention where theres humanitarian issues such as rwanda, the ocupied territorys, kosovo e.t.c. The only problem is that members states wont pull there wait unless theres economic insentives involved.

For example the UN called for intervention fairly early on in the rwandan genocide but this fell on death ears untill it was largely to late. The french continued to sell weapons to the perpertators throughout the conflict so its safe to say the U.N is fairly toothless.

If it where the U.Ns members states voluntiering to intervene in places like Zim there wouldnt be an issue. However states like brittian and america arent effective at doing so because there self proclaimed role as global policeman is tainted by a conflict of intrest between protecting humantarian intrests and there own economic benefit. The reason their foriegn policy so often goes down the shitter is that they prioritise the latter.

You mention "liberals" protesting out side parliament and the UN condeming any prospective intervention of zim. This is seamingly a reference to the iraq war so i think it should be noted that the two are different kettles of fish. The iraq war didnt meet opossition because all of those concerned opossed war in itself.

The reason the invasion of iraq was a opossed was that an invasion of a oil rich country by an adminstration full of oil tycoons certainly appeared slightly suspect [though admitedly i missed this at the time:roll: ] and guess what? it was. Interventions where there where less overt ulterior motives have met less opossition. Even dodgey ones like Sierra Leone.

 

[Jay R]

I'd disagree. There's certainly a hardcore of anti-war protest groups that refuse to acknowledge any value in military intervention and these groups would do so even without the Iraqi debacle in recent memory. These peoples efforts are exacerbated by a wider perception in our countries that we should be able to resolve conflicts very quickly and without excessive bloodshed upon either side. This aspect of course is of our own creation. The military-industrial complex has bragged so much of its abilities to drop bombs and missiles that many citizens get cold feet for any sort of combat once a bodybag comes home. Alas, as our leaders have learned in Iraq. Laser guided bombs can only knock down the edifices of a regime, while boots on the ground are necessary to guide the construction of what follows it.

Though I would agree with you regarding the west's reticence in entering any conflict that does not relate to its own self-interests, that is demonstrably true. Unfortunately the present conflict in Iraq has the potential to prompt another US retreat from foreign interventions as was seen following Somalia, leaving the Mugabe's of the world free to continue as they please. That is, in my opinion, one of the greatest costs of the current administrations Middle-Eastern endeavour, but the anti-war 'liberals' that I referred are misguided enough to call that a blessing.

 

[Red_Dave]

I'd disagree. There's certainly a hardcore of anti-war protest groups that refuse to acknowledge any value in military intervention and these groups would do so even without the Iraqi debacle in recent memory. These peoples efforts are exacerbated by a wider perception in our countries that we should be able to resolve conflicts very quickly and without excessive bloodshed upon either side. This aspect of course is of our own creation. The military-industrial complex has bragged so much of its abilities to drop bombs and missiles that many citizens get cold feet for any sort of combat once a bodybag comes home. Alas, as our leaders have learned in Iraq. Laser guided bombs can only knock down the edifices of a regime, while boots on the ground are necessary to guide the construction of what follows it.

Though I would agree with you regarding the west's reticence in entering any conflict that does not relate to its own self-interests, that is demonstrably true. Unfortunately the present conflict in Iraq has the potential to prompt another US retreat from foreign interventions as was seen following Somalia, leaving the Mugabe's of the world free to continue as they please. That is, in my opinion, one of the greatest costs of the current administrations Middle-Eastern endeavour, but the anti-war 'liberals' that I referred are misguided enough to call that a blessing.

I agree that the hardcore of anti war protestors you mention exists but i dont think they made up the bulk of resistance to the iraq war. Just look at the difference between Afganistan and Iraq. Afganistan met very little opposition [aside from the hardcore guys you mention] because it was a responce to a genuine threat. Iraq faced much more opossition. This is illusstrated by the fact it was opossed in the most attended protest march in londons history. Many of the people there had never protested before so this surgests that the majority of those protesting where not hard core passifists but ordinary people who saw the that the war was suspect.

Its inaccurate to portray "liberals" as being anti-humantarian intervention when the war in kosovo for example [a war backed by the U.N who you berrate as being anti-interventionalist] , was a genuine manifestation of social democratic idealogy. Labour was elected in 97 partly on the basis of Robin Cooks claim that he/the party would add "an ethical dimension to foreign policy" and the war in kosovo is an example of this. Its important to remember that at this stage full scale humantarian intervention was quite a new concept. Ethical Foreign policy may have left the labour government followed closely by its author but its still important to remember where the concept of humanitarian intervention came from.

Groups like amnesty often call for intervention in places like darfur so i doubt there as reactionary as you paint them.

 

[Medussa]

Like I said, I'm not trying to completely discount what is being said here; rather, I'm trying to say that, according to him, these figures are blown way out of proportion.

No problem, I understand your viewpoint and lookout, but I wonder exactly how much stats they see of their own country. How much is allowed and how much is 'fixed' and modified. It's possible that he might think it's exagerated, but in reality they are being lied to by their own government. I'm really just wondering abt things like that. Not that I'm the ever-seeking doom and gloom prophet, but when it comes to that country.. I question everything.

I may have overstepped a bit in saying his life in Zimbabwe is not so different from that here in the US. I asked him a bit about it just a few hours, trying to gather a little bit more information about the place... because, to be entirely honest, he knows a hell of a lot more about life over there than I do.

Don't worry abt it I can compare my life in SA in some ways to that of Americans or Europeans, but in other ways it differs completely.

From his description, he lives in a rural farming area, and his family manages different plots of land, leasing and such. The Zimbabwean equivalent of supermarket is much more likely to be out of stock with items like milk or bread, and prices can skyrocket during different parts of the year; and, as such, you have to store your own and prepare for shortages.

I'm very interested to hear if they have always owned the different plots of land or have they received more due to land redistributions? I would like to know what the general feelings and concensus is in regards to it. A difficult question to ask is, how much happiness has the people gained from land given to them but they lack the skills or funds to actually use it? Doesn't it somehow start up a bit of hatred? The farmers that used to provide for them and that were forced to leave, and all that barren land just lying there now? I'm really interested to hear a Zimy's opinion on this. How broad he can take the opinion depends on how well connected he is with his own community. I'm also very interested in hearing abt HIV and aids in Zim.

On Sunday Zim was in our news again, it was in regards to young students that turns to prostitution in order to fund their studies. Very coincidental as that was part of our conversation. The girl is 18 years old and is a prostitute 7 days a week at different night clubs, she asks R50 and she said that she'll do that for another few years to sustain herself then afterwards she'll quit. Now keep in mind that 1/5 of adults are hiv positive, that doesn't sound so promising for the future now does it? This was broadcasted on E-tv and I found an article to verify it: Not sure why it was only broadcasted over here on Sunday when the article is from December. But still, it's a good read.
The Zimbabwe Situation Look for Desperate Measures

Oh geez, look at the rest of the articles... especially the one just after that.

Things may run out very quickly, so some wait around all day for new items to be put out for display. He put a lot of emphasis on this; I'll ask more pointed questions, if you want.

Thanks for the offer, and I'm going to take you up on that. I've seen pics of the long ques of people at petrol stations, pics of empty shops, hungry children sitting by their mothers in front of their homes, they look so desperate and that saddens me.

I'm truly not trying to 'debate' in a traditional sense; I honestly thought it was interesting reading this, and then hearing Tarique's opinion on what he read. Keep in mind, his family has lived there for more than five generations, on the same land... he has a considerable family history within the country.

I'm also not the 'debating'/'arguing' (in many cases) kind, I'm more interested in other views and what I can learn from it, rather than opposing and flaming. Hmm, I'm very interested in what his family has to say abt the changes in Zim. The good to the bad. Not sure how old your friend is, so his family/parents might give a better idea of what's what. My parent's neighbor came from Zim (still Rhodesia then; and often still called Rhodesia by some here who remember the good old days), they complained that when they came over they couldn't bring any of their money over, even then. There were also no jewels to buy to try and convert the money into that. They came to South Africa to start a new life and accomplished just that.

Regarding your comments on the media in Zimbabwe, I suppose it's altogether not unlikely that a considerable portion of the media may be government controlled. However, given his family history and time spent in Zimbabwe, I very much doubt that citizens would be completely unaware of their government's actions.

I'm not so sure of that... I question my government daily and our media is ANC controlled so I'm also not buying all the stats they give out. As far as I can remember there was a time in Zim where no foreign journalists were allowed, so how much their own countrymen are even allowed, I have no idea. I'm a bit pressed for time, but I'll do a search for that.

Again, I would be happy to ask more questions and put responses up. Don't take me as being openly antagonistic, here; I'd much prefer if I were interpreted as playing more of a 'devil's advocate' role.

Is there any way that your friend can join the site and contribute on this own? That way you don't have to play the 'advocate' for him. Just seems easier and more practical.


Just for interest sake:
Foreign powers cannot 'impose' solutions on Zim
SABCnews.com - africa/southern_africa

Exactly who and what government can even begin to negotiate with him?

 

[Volker]

Its inaccurate to portray "liberals" as being anti-humantarian intervention when the war in kosovo for example [a war backed by the U.N who you berrate as being anti-interventionalist] , was a genuine manifestation of social democratic idealogy.

The war in Kosovo was not backed by an UN mandate, it was a NATO aggression based on propaganda lies. If this is a manifestation of social democratic ideology, then there is no need for social democratic ideology any longer.

Labour was elected in 97 partly on the basis of Robin Cooks claim that he/the party would add "an ethical dimension to foreign policy" and the war in kosovo is an example of this.

This is what politicians say to get votes. You can't be serious about the Kosovo war being an example for something ethical.

Its important to remember that at this stage full scale humantarian intervention was quite a new concept. Ethical Foreign policy may have left the labour government followed closely by its author but its still important to remember where the concept of humanitarian intervention came from.

Yes, this "bringing civilization to the savages" from the colonial times was a little outdated. So we have "humanitarian interventions" now :roll:

 

[Red_Dave]

The war in Kosovo was not backed by an UN mandate, it was a NATO aggression based on propaganda lies. If this is a manifestation of social democratic ideology, then there is no need for social democratic ideology any longer.

This is what politicians say to get votes. You can't be serious about the Kosovo war being an example for something ethical.

Yes, this "bringing civilization to the savages" from the colonial times was a little outdated. So we have "humanitarian interventions" now :roll:

Whats the issue with kosovo then? they may have been **** ups but the ethnic cleansing stoped. Dont assume that because western foriegn policy has its flaws that automatically means milosevic was a good guy.

 

[Volker]

Whats the issue with kosovo then? they may have been **** ups but the ethnic cleansing stoped.

There was no ethnic cleansing in Kosovo before the NATO attacked. Ethnic cleansing started when NATO troops did "peacekeeping" there.

The estimations for populations are:
1991
Albanians 88 %
Serbians 7 %
others: 5 %

2000
Albanians 88 %
Serbians 7 %
others 5 %

2006
Albanians 95 %
Serbians 4 %
others 1 %

The NATO attacked in 1999.

I assume that Western politicians making up lies, starting a war and trying to tell me something about "humanitarian intervention" are bad guys, well, actually, it's much more than assuming.

 

[cherokee]

There was no ethnic cleansing in Kosovo before the NATO attacked. Ethnic cleansing started when NATO troops did "peacekeeping" there.

The estimations for populations are:
1991
Albanians 88 %
Serbians 7 %
others: 5 %

2000
Albanians 88 %
Serbians 7 %
others 5 %

2006
Albanians 95 %
Serbians 4 %
others 1 %

The NATO attacked in 1999.

I assume that Western politicians making up lies, starting a war and trying to tell me something about "humanitarian intervention" are bad guys, well, actually, it's much more than assuming.

Where do you come up with this CRAP? Do you just pull it from your a$$ everyday?

 

[Volker]

Where do you come up with this ***? Do you just pull it from your *** everyday?

The numbers are from Statistical Office of Kosovo, Weltbank (estimation for 2000), OSCE (estimation for 2005), it's in German, but the table is easy to read.

Minderheiten im Kosovo - Wikipedia