Zelensky's Finest Hour

[Fledermaus]

It is the tool that shows the hypocrisy of the people making the point.

Derailing is your favorite tactic.

You use it early, often and ad nauseam.

 

[oneworld2]

Derailing is your favorite tactic.

You use it early, often and ad nauseam.

Don't let it worry you and while you are at it remind yourself you engage in it too with no problem and no sense of the hypocrisy attached to it when you try to call out others for it...............see below

Iraq had WMDs until it used them on Iran and later their own people.

Iran was a signatory to the deproliferation treaty..

Palestinians have a state. Did the US say they can't?

What's the thread title again?

Let conversations flow and stop complaining, if you can

 

[choiceone]

You never answered the question............. So if it came out that the seperatists in Donbas had " invited" the Russian army to stay in Ukraine and occupy it for 20 years, install a puppet regime in Kiev, you would be supportive of that, right?

No, I would be what I said, supportive of a deal. But the problem is that Zelenskyy was not unsympathetic on the Russian speakers in the east who identified with Russia were not being victimized by Kyiv under Zelenskyy. Because he was elected pretty much to get rid of the corruption and deal with citizens democratically, and he was a native Russian speaker as well as a Ukrainian speaker, he wasn't being a dictator, but was beginning to address the problem.

And you think Russia would have just accepted those Ukrainian Russians back do you? On what grounds?

Putin wants to unify all Russian speakers as Russians. Under the USSR and probably before, Muscovites and Muscovite Russian speakers basically defined Ukrainian as a dialect of Russian. Ukrainians, of course, didn't, and for good reason. Both Proto-Muscovite Russian and Ukrainian developed from Proto-Slavic, which was probably originally in what is now western Ukraine-Kyiv and moved both east and west and produced numerous languages. People in east Ukraine who identify with Russia would have been welcomed. FYI, lots of people in Ukraine and Russia are related, know each other, and communicate.

Do you think the US invasion of Afghanistan was illegal? If not , why not?

It's hard to say. Going in after bin Laden, probably yes. Going in after being invited by the Northwest Assliance people, maybe. Staying 20 years? There should probably have been a deal.

Do you think the US led invasion of Iraq was illegal?

Absolutely.

No, the post 2014 coup government was picked by the USA.

It's my understanding that Yanukovich and Poroshenko were acceptable to Russia but Zelenskyy wasn't because Zelenskyy was actually democratically elected but there was corruption earlier. Perhaps I need to read more stuff. This isn't my area.

If you haven't noticed how racist the world sytem is, you haven't been looking closely enough imo Apart from a special tribunal for the former Yugoslavia conflict how many white people has the Hague indicted/prosecuted?

I have no idea as regards Hague prosecutions.

I'm not saying there is no racism. First, we would have to define race and what various groups think race is.

I never bought into "white," "black," etc. Genetics is way too complicated. We all go back to common African ancestors and later common Central Asian ancestors. After that, people went all over and adapted to different locations. "White" is just one variant related to locations without much sun and dominant characteristics that developed among localized inter-mating populations. "Color" would falsely unify Africans and Melanesians, who are not more genetically alike than Asians and Melanesians, for example.

 

[oneworld2]

No, I would be what I said, supportive of a deal. But the problem is that Zelenskyy was not unsympathetic on the Russian speakers in the east who identified with Russia were not being victimized by Kyiv under Zelenskyy. Because he was elected pretty much to get rid of the corruption and deal with citizens democratically, and he was a native Russian speaker as well as a Ukrainian speaker, he wasn't being a dictator, but was beginning to address the problem.

Putin wants to unify all Russian speakers as Russians. Under the USSR and probably before, Muscovites and Muscovite Russian speakers basically defined Ukrainian as a dialect of Russian. Ukrainians, of course, didn't, and for good reason. Both Proto-Muscovite Russian and Ukrainian developed from Proto-Slavic, which was probably originally in what is now western Ukraine-Kyiv and moved both east and west and produced numerous languages. People in east Ukraine who identify with Russia would have been welcomed. FYI, lots of people in Ukraine and Russia are related, know each other, and communicate.

It's hard to say. Going in after bin Laden, probably yes. Going in after being invited by the Northwest Assliance people, maybe. Staying 20 years? There should probably have been a deal.

Absolutely.

It's my understanding that Yanukovich and Poroshenko were acceptable to Russia but Zelenskyy wasn't because Zelenskyy was actually democratically elected but there was corruption earlier. Perhaps I need to read more stuff. This isn't my area.

I have no idea as regards Hague prosecutions.

I'm not saying there is no racism. First, we would have to define race and what various groups think race is.

I never bought into "white," "black," etc. Genetics is way too complicated. We all go back to common African ancestors and later common Central Asian ancestors. After that, people went all over and adapted to different locations. "White" is just one variant related to locations without much sun and dominant characteristics that developed among localized inter-mating populations. "Color" would falsely unify Africans and Melanesians, who are not more genetically alike than Asians and Melanesians, for example.

When Zelensky first came into office he tried to make some progress on some of the Minsk2 framework, elections in the Donbas etc BUT was told in no uncertain terms by the rightwing fanatics that that's not on. His time there has seen him getting more pressured by the right wing neo Nazis Putin was talking of when everyone said " what the hell is he talking about" So, yeah, I think Zelenskys position has been pretty much hopeless from the start.

I am aware of the close ties between Russians and Ukrainians

The thing is with international law and the US invasion oif Afghanistan is that there's a thing called proportionality. You can respond proportionally and remain within the law. Considering that most of the attackers on 9/11 were Saudis and no Afghans were involved I think it's dubious from that point on and only gets worse. To go over and destroy the AQ bases there and kill those in them would be proportianate but to invade the whole country and occupy it for 20 years, killing thousands of innocent Afghans and installing a puppet government, imo , doesn't stand the test of legitimacy wrt proportionality

My take is that Yanukovych was more pro Russian and that Poroshenko but not anti Russian enough for the rightwingers. I think the Russians waited to see where Zelensky was and when it became clearer that he was more and more bogged down by and thus gravitating towards Ukraines far right they made their call on him as probably not someone to push through Minsk2

If you google people trialled by the Hague it's a list of black/brown people, Milosovic and co was a special war tribunal

As for the race dimensionto this there's a few things

There has been a war in Yemen for years and the NATO countries making it possible for the head choppers of Saudi to wage it are the same ones bemoaning Russia and pointing to? authoritarians v " democracies" etc etc

Not only that many black people that have tried to leave war torn Ukraine have been sent back by Ukrainian border guards

My own country is trying to/talking about fast tracking Ukrainians fleeing the war into our country ( i'm fine with it and welcome it) At the same time they are pushing brown people, who are also running away from war torn countries, away into the sea surrounding France while some are drowning

Commentators are saying " this shouldn't be happening in Europe" as though it shjould be happening elsewhere. Like as though white peoples fighting eachother is a stain on their civility. Nobody says the same when it's the brown folk in wars or in wars we are waging on them, like the two we spoke of above. Who here " stood with Iraq" or Afghanistan. Why didn't we see them getting bombed?

The world is full of it

 

[choiceone]

When Zelensky first came into office he tried to make some progress on some of the Minsk2 framework, elections in the Donbas etc BUT was told in no uncertain terms by the rightwing fanatics that that's not on. His time there has seen him getting more pressured by the right wing neo Nazis Putin was talking of when everyone said " what the hell is he talking about" So, yeah, I think Zelenskys position has been pretty much hopeless from the start.

At this point, he certainly can't abandon the group fighting so well on the eastern front, especially because the Russians attacked a maternity clinic and, I think, a children's hospital.

I am aware of the close ties between Russians and Ukrainians

The thing is with international law and the US invasion oif Afghanistan is that there's a thing called proportionality. You can respond proportionally and remain within the law. Considering that most of the attackers on 9/11 were Saudis and no Afghans were involved I think it's dubious from that point on and only gets worse. To go over and destroy the AQ bases there and kill those in them would be proportianate but to invade the whole country and occupy it for 20 years, killing thousands of innocent Afghans and installing a puppet government, imo , doesn't stand the test of legitimacy wrt proportionality

I agree on Afghanistan. Going after bin Laden and getting his group and getting out was the proper approach.

My take is that Yanukovych was more pro Russian and that Poroshenko but not anti Russian enough for the rightwingers. I think the Russians waited to see where Zelensky was and when it became clearer that he was more and more bogged down by and thus gravitating towards Ukraines far right they made their call on him as probably not someone to push through Minsk2

If you google people trialled by the Hague it's a list of black/brown people, Milosovic and co was a special war tribunal

As for the race dimensionto this there's a few things

There has been a war in Yemen for years and the NATO countries making it possible for the head choppers of Saudi to wage it are the same ones bemoaning Russia and pointing to? authoritarians v " democracies" etc etc

Not only that many black people that have tried to leave war torn Ukraine have been sent back by Ukrainian border guards

My own country is trying to/talking about fast tracking Ukrainians fleeing the war into our country ( i'm fine with it and welcome it) At the same time they are pushing brown people, who are also running away from war torn countries, away into the sea surrounding France while some are drowning

Commentators are saying " this shouldn't be happening in Europe" as though it shjould be happening elsewhere. Like as though white peoples fighting eachother is a stain on their civility. Nobody says the same when it's the brown folk in wars or in wars we are waging on them, like the two we spoke of above. Who here " stood with Iraq" or Afghanistan. Why didn't we see them getting bombed?

The world is full of it

I can't comment on most of this. However,
1 note that various foreign students, e.g., from India, were also having trouble getting out, apparently because they were foreign.

2 I would love a source on blacks being turned back from flight by Ukrainians.

3. Any people's fighting each other is a stain on their civility, but usually only one side was savage enough to start moving the level of politics from name calling to physical violence.

3 I think some of the apparent racism is Europism. Europeans may think they understand each other, whereas intelligent Europeans, like their American counterparts, are willing to admit their ignorance about other populations. Those who think of our countries as successful multicultural secular democracies try to play down the population of unicultural Christian authoritarians in them, probably in order not to be too depressed.