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Zelensky tells German MPs ‘never again’ Holocaust slogan is now meaningless

PeteEU said:
No we have come long ways in Germany. AfD in Germany is a clear sign that we should never have a "strong Germany" militarily. When leaders of AfD advocate shooting refugees at the border..
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That's... worrying. But they're the only fifth largest (briefly third largest) party in the country, whereas America's former president and de facto leader of it's second party advocated - literally his first response to Russia's military buildup towards invasion - having the same thing on the Mexico border: Even more outrageous, and even more widely defended or often applauded by Americans. By implication, we should never have a strong America... or for that matter a strong Britain or a strong France or strong anyone, because every country has its extremist nutjobs.
 
Tigerace117 said:
.......are you kidding me?

Ukraine literally has a state sponsored Neo Nazi regiment, and yet somehow they think they can draw(laughably wrong) equivalencies to the Holocaust?
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Out of all the Ukrainians, they make up probably 0.00000000000001% of the population.

You are really good at building mountains from mole hills.
 
Roadvirus said:
Out of all the Ukrainians, they make up probably 0.00000000000001% of the population.

You are really good at building mountains from mole hills.
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Invoking the Holocaust while allowing Neo Nazis(including foreign ones) to have full state sponsorship is hypocrisy on a truly amazing scale.
 
I like him and support the Ukrainians, but he went way over the top. However horrific it is, unless there's much more going on that I don't know about, this makes the Holocaust meaningless, not the slogan...
 
SoCal said:
I like him and support the Ukrainians, but he went way over the top. However horrific it is, unless there's much more going on that I don't know about, this makes the Holocaust meaningless, not the slogan...
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The thread is really about his courage and his ability to lead and to express the feelings of the Ukranian people to the world. Do you disagree that he has those qualities?
 
Tigerace117 said:
.......are you kidding me?

Ukraine literally has a state sponsored Neo Nazi regiment, and yet somehow they think they can draw(laughably wrong) equivalencies to the Holocaust?
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One trick pony.

Tigerace117 said:
Invoking the Holocaust while allowing Neo Nazis(including foreign ones) to have full state sponsorship is hypocrisy on a truly amazing scale.
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Pony has no other trick.
 
PeteEU said:
And in here lies the problem. I like Zelensky, but he is more a pawn in a big corrupt system, than an actual leader. He is an actor after all and was a joke candidate that got elected... Is he the right man for the job now? Maybe.... so far he has impressed me.
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He's sort of a counter-trump. trump's *supporters* aka cult had this view that 'he's an outside, a non-politician, he's just who we need to go to Washington and clean it of all the corruption, drain the swamp'. It's odd how similar the case for Zelensky is except that he more actually is that. And like matter versus anti-matter how the two of them collided in trump's scheme to extort Zelensky leading to trump's impeachment.

PeteEU said:
People forget that Ukraine has its own oligarchs and they have just as much influence as in Russia. Add in the neo Nazi bits (which sadly are very real), and you have pretty much the most corrupt country in Europe... and that is saying a lot considering countries in the Balkans.
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I'm barely familiar with Ukraine to comment, but as I've said recently, they've been dominated by corrupt oligarchs since the USSR until 2019 with Zelensky, who is not an oligarch; the neo-Nazis ran in the last election and got 2% of the vote and no seats, they are a real problem as you say but not something like a problem Zelensky is part of.
PeteEU said:
The wests backing of Ukraine since the 2004 revolution has always felt very dirty. The country has gone from one corrupt government to the next and there was next to no outrage when the new revolutionary government started to push for limiting the rights of ethnic Russians in Ukraine. This ultimately lead to the Ukrainian Russian population to revolt against Kiev and the situation we have today.
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My impression is that you're right, but sometimes the road has wrongs leading to rights; it seems that with Zelensky by 2019 they were finally getting to a better situation, even if the road did have a lot of things like the west covertly pushing for pro-western power for its own interests, which can be both selfish/corrupt AND much better and the right choice.

PeteEU said:
The west has to at some point deal with the Neo nazi scum in Ukraine and at home and they are frankly a much bigger threat than the Russians.
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Huh? In the US, domestic far-right (e.g. including neo-Nazis) are officially the 'biggest terrorist threat' and getting attention; but have they blown up Ukraine like Putin has? How man nukes are they threatening?
 
SoCal said:
I like him and support the Ukrainians, but he went way over the top. However horrific it is, unless there's much more going on that I don't know about, this makes the Holocaust meaningless, not the slogan...
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"Never again" looked at a power-crazed dictator choosing to commit mass murder, and expresses support for the political systems strengthened after WWII, like the UN charter prohibiting aggressive war or genocide. Zelensky's point, I think, is that the phrase "never again" asserting repeating such mass killing won't be repeated, has failed to prevent it.
 
Chomsky said:
Quite honestly, he seems to be getting a great deal of support; and I suspect there's much we're not aware of.
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You seem to have latched on to that as a bit of something you'd like to be the case. Of course neither of us has facts about just what's being done.

But we can get some idea just looking at the news and the progress.

We're releasing specific equipment lists we're delivering - 800 of this, 2,000 of that, and dollar amounts. As that fits the politics of reassuring the public, 'we're doing a lot'. There likely is more behind the scenes, but how much evidence are we seeing it's a lot?

We haven't even been able to get frickin drinking water into a city, as a young girl was killed by deydration *8 days ago* and there have been no supplies to the hundreds of thousands trapped since.
 
Tigerace117 said:
You don’t get to invoke the memory of the Holocaust while sponsoring ****ing Neo Nazis bud.

Hate to break it to you.
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See post #358 of the Putin's own Hitler Jugend thread. Thanks in advance.
 
Fledermaus said:
I am not the one invoking the Holocaust.

Nor am I sponsoring Neo Nazis.

You fail.

And, you still haven't QUOTED me.
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Zelensky, however, is.

Whose government sponsors Neo Nazi thugs.

As usual, facts blow you out of the water.
 
Craig234 said:
"Never again" looked at a power-crazed dictator choosing to commit mass murder, and expresses support for the political systems strengthened after WWII, like the UN charter prohibiting aggressive war or genocide. Zelensky's point, I think, is that the phrase "never again" asserting repeating such mass killing won't be repeated, has failed to prevent it.
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Yeah, I got his attempt, I just don't believe this is a repeat. "Never again" refers specifically to Germany's systematic, government run extermination of approx six million Jews. Indiscriminate bombing of civilians is a horrible war crime, but in my mind you can't compare it with the Holocaust. They're worlds apart, different leagues, apples and oranges, relatively speaking like a petty thief verses a murderer. But as I've said, I support him all the way. I think we should send him the Polish MiGs...
 
watsup said:
The thread is really about his courage and his ability to lead and to express the feelings of the Ukranian people to the world. Do you disagree that he has those qualities?
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No, I think he has been handling it great, he's a good communicator. If you have all the other skills required, having been an actor isn't necessarily a negative. In this instance I think he went over the top...
 
Chomsky said:
www.timesofisrael.com

Zelensky tells German MPs ‘never again’ Holocaust slogan is now meaningless

Ukrainian president addresses Bundestag via video, says Europe being destroyed, urges tearing down a new 'wall' that Russia is building between 'freedom and bondage'
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com





--

Alright, this guy is good! Really Good!

Zelensky is the right guy for the job, the man of the hour, without a doubt. Besides his fearless courage, his command of history, understanding, and rhetoric, is excellent. In this new information age, he is winning the PR War with Putin without a doubt - no contest! And that just may be the critical component that allows him & his countrymen to win the shooting war!

--

Think of how evocative the statements, in my two excerpts above, are to the German government & German People!

"A new Berlin Wall"?

"Never Again"

I can't imagine more evocation & poignancy in a plea for German assistance and arms!

--

Mr. Zelensky is one talented & character laden individual.

A man for the hour, a man for all seasons.

I've become a fan! (y)
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I am going to give you a different perspective. I think he's right at the edge of using some of this imagery, like quoting the "I have a dream" speech in an address to the American people or referencing the holocaust slogan 'never again' as overkill and exploitive and some of the people he's wanting to win over, will resent this tactic as just plain manipulative. I know this is a very desperate man, who is running out of time, and he feels he needs to take rhetorical risks to get the most bang for his celebrity buck, but my reaction was not the same as yours. I saw this as laying a giant guilt trip, over that 'No Fly Zone he wants but can't have, more akin to emotional blackmail than soaring oratory and I don't doubt that more than a few political leaders, will see it as grandstanding.
 
It's bizarre that he's trying to equate Ukraine being attacked to America being attacked (Pearl Harbor, 9/11).
 
Chomsky said:
www.timesofisrael.com

Zelensky tells German MPs ‘never again’ Holocaust slogan is now meaningless

Ukrainian president addresses Bundestag via video, says Europe being destroyed, urges tearing down a new 'wall' that Russia is building between 'freedom and bondage'
www.timesofisrael.com www.timesofisrael.com





--

Alright, this guy is good! Really Good!

Zelensky is the right guy for the job, the man of the hour, without a doubt. Besides his fearless courage, his command of history, understanding, and rhetoric, is excellent. In this new information age, he is winning the PR War with Putin without a doubt - no contest! And that just may be the critical component that allows him & his countrymen to win the shooting war!

--

Think of how evocative the statements, in my two excerpts above, are to the German government & German People!

"A new Berlin Wall"?

"Never Again"

I can't imagine more evocation & poignancy in a plea for German assistance and arms!

--

Mr. Zelensky is one talented & character laden individual.

A man for the hour, a man for all seasons.

I've become a fan! (y)
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Awesome possum. Now what are the realistic avenues available to the West in helping Ukraine that have not already been utilized? If Zelensky is going to bring up “never again,” then I’m going to remind him that Hitler didn’t have nukes, let alone over six thousand of them.
 
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Antiwar said:
It's bizarre that he's trying to equate Ukraine being attacked to America being attacked (Pearl Harbor, 9/11).
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Because the attack on Ukraine is magnitudes worse than the attack on Pearl Harbor and 9/11?
 
Fledermaus said:
Why?
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Because he's trying to get the USG to intervene by acting like an attack on Ukraine is an attack on America. Asking for help is fine, but twisting things isn't.
 
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