• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Zelensky pleads with Israel to provide Iron Dome, but Israel may be worthless to appeal to.

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,987
Reaction score
7,394
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
For 75 years the US has protected, funded, supplied, and defended Israel more than any other country in the world. In return, Israel has contributed nothing. The history of wars in the middle east have entirely or partially had Israel as its root, and US soldiers have died on behalf of several countries in that region...including Israel.

I find it morally appalling - so much so that unless Israel shows some god damn gratitude by helping Ukraine with their drones and anti-ballistic missile system, I will be one of millions who will write them off politically.

It's outrageous.

 

washunut

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 13, 2009
Messages
12,593
Reaction score
3,785
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Slightly Liberal
For 75 years the US has protected, funded, supplied, and defended Israel more than any other country in the world. In return, Israel has contributed nothing. The history of wars in the middle east have entirely or partially had Israel as its root, and US soldiers have died on behalf of several countries in that region...including Israel.

I find it morally appalling - so much so that unless Israel shows some god damn gratitude by helping Ukraine with their drones and anti-ballistic missile system, I will be one of millions who will write them off politically.

It's outrageous.


Has America supplied the patriot system without telling us?
 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,987
Reaction score
7,394
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Has America supplied the patriot system without telling us?

Has Israel supplied anything at all, such as drones, anti-armor weapons, anti-aircraft weapons, EW, anything? NO! I read they even backed off helmets for fear of hurting business with Russia.

Should the US figure out a way to train Ukrainians on patriots and deliver them, not just supply S-300s? You bet. But for reasons of business and self-interest, Israel has gone out of its way to ignore sanctioning and prevent the supply of Israeli licensed weapons (e.g. drones that are desperately needed) manufactured elsewhere from being donated to Ukraine. They don't even want to find a way to send a damned helmet, let alone an iron dome system.

Israel is so self-centered they wouldn't risk a business deal just to help the US.

I say fine, no more aid to Israel. In fact, let Iran eat their lunch. They are as useless as tits on a boar hog.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
61,752
Reaction score
16,392
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
For 75 years the US has protected, funded, supplied, and defended Israel more than any other country in the world. In return, Israel has contributed nothing. The history of wars in the middle east have entirely or partially had Israel as its root, and US soldiers have died on behalf of several countries in that region...including Israel.

I find it morally appalling - so much so that unless Israel shows some god damn gratitude by helping Ukraine with their drones and anti-ballistic missile system, I will be one of millions who will write them off politically.

It's outrageous.


Why, exactly, is Israel obligated to be “grateful” to Ukraine? In what world does that make sense?
 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,987
Reaction score
7,394
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Why, exactly, is Israel obligated to be “grateful” to Ukraine? In what world does that make sense?

They are obligated to show some gratitude to the US, and our interest in helping Ukraine. DUH!
 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,987
Reaction score
7,394
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
The United States funds, Israel's defense systems INCUDING missile defense. What consideration in supporting US strategic interests does the US get in return? Apparently, nothing...


"Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. ... To date, the United States has provided Israel $150 billion (current, or noninflation-adjusted, dollars) in bilateral assistance and missile defense funding.

At present, almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance; from 1971 to 2007, Israel also received significant economic assistance. In 2016, the U.S. and Israeli governments signed their third 10-year Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on military aid, covering FY2019 to FY2028. Under the terms of the MOU, the United States pledged to provide...$38 billion in military aid ($33 billion in Foreign Military Financing grants plus $5 billion in missile defense appropriations) to Israel.

Israel is the first international operator of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the Department of Defense’s fifth-generation stealth aircraft, considered to be the most technologically advanced fighter jet ever made. To date, Israel has purchased 50 F-35s in three separate contracts, funded with U.S. assistance, and has taken delivery on 30. For FY2022, the Biden Administration requested $3.3 billion in FMF for Israel and $500 million in missile defense aid to mark the fourth year of the MOU. T

The Administration also requested $5 million in Migration and Refugee Assistance humanitarian funding for migrants to Israel. H.R. 4373, the Department of State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations Act, 2022 would, among other things, provide $3.3 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) for Israel. The Senate version, S. 3075, the Department of State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations Act, 2022, also would provide $3.3 billion in FMF for Israel. H.R. 4432 and S. 3023, the respective House and Senate defense appropriations bills for FY2022, would each provide $500 million in missile defense funding for Israel, including $108 million for the Iron Dome program, $157 million for David’s Sling, $62 million for Arrow III, and $173 million for Arrow II.

Several bills under consideration by Congress would provide $1 billion in supplemental aid for Iron Dome over three years."
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
61,752
Reaction score
16,392
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
They are obligated to show some gratitude to the US, and our interest in helping Ukraine. DUH!

Except for the fact that they aren’t. Israel is not obligated to do anything for Ukraine, no matter how much you want them to. If they chose to do so, great. But pretending they have some imaginary obligation is flat out wrong.
 

DarkWizard12

Sir Poop A lot
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 9, 2007
Messages
14,490
Reaction score
3,019
Location
Beirut
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Communist
For 75 years the US has protected, funded, supplied, and defended Israel more than any other country in the world. In return, Israel has contributed nothing. The history of wars in the middle east have entirely or partially had Israel as its root, and US soldiers have died on behalf of several countries in that region...including Israel.

I find it morally appalling - so much so that unless Israel shows some god damn gratitude by helping Ukraine with their drones and anti-ballistic missile system, I will be one of millions who will write them off politically.

It's outrageous.

I too, think that it would be wise for Israel to give weapons and iron dome technology, as well as nuclear weapons!!! to the nazis in ukraine! they need to show some gratitude!


index.jpg
 

Juks

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
5,294
Reaction score
4,418
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
I too, think that it would be wise for Israel to give weapons and iron dome technology, as well as nuclear weapons!!! to the nazis in ukraine! they need to show some gratitude!


View attachment 67381213
Zelensky isn't a nazi, h is a jew and descendant from holocaust victims....
 
  • Like
Reactions: PoS

Juks

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
5,294
Reaction score
4,418
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
The United States funds, Israel's defense systems INCUDING missile defense. What consideration in supporting US strategic interests does the US get in return? Apparently, nothing...


"Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. ... To date, the United States has provided Israel $150 billion (current, or noninflation-adjusted, dollars) in bilateral assistance and missile defense funding.

At present, almost all U.S. bilateral aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance; from 1971 to 2007, Israel also received significant economic assistance. In 2016, the U.S. and Israeli governments signed their third 10-year Memorandum of Understanding (MOU) on military aid, covering FY2019 to FY2028. Under the terms of the MOU, the United States pledged to provide...$38 billion in military aid ($33 billion in Foreign Military Financing grants plus $5 billion in missile defense appropriations) to Israel.

Israel is the first international operator of the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, the Department of Defense’s fifth-generation stealth aircraft, considered to be the most technologically advanced fighter jet ever made. To date, Israel has purchased 50 F-35s in three separate contracts, funded with U.S. assistance, and has taken delivery on 30. For FY2022, the Biden Administration requested $3.3 billion in FMF for Israel and $500 million in missile defense aid to mark the fourth year of the MOU. T

The Administration also requested $5 million in Migration and Refugee Assistance humanitarian funding for migrants to Israel. H.R. 4373, the Department of State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations Act, 2022 would, among other things, provide $3.3 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) for Israel. The Senate version, S. 3075, the Department of State, Foreign Operations, and Related Programs Appropriations Act, 2022, also would provide $3.3 billion in FMF for Israel. H.R. 4432 and S. 3023, the respective House and Senate defense appropriations bills for FY2022, would each provide $500 million in missile defense funding for Israel, including $108 million for the Iron Dome program, $157 million for David’s Sling, $62 million for Arrow III, and $173 million for Arrow II.

Several bills under consideration by Congress would provide $1 billion in supplemental aid for Iron Dome over three years."
Yes, but US support for Israel is a complicated issue. Not as simple as you might think.

Which also applies to Israel's relationship with Russia. Israel is home to a core Russian-Jewish population of about 15% of their population.

 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,987
Reaction score
7,394
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Except for the fact that they aren’t. Israel is not obligated to do anything for Ukraine, no matter how much you want them to. If they chose to do so, great. But pretending they have some imaginary obligation is flat out wrong.

Apparently, you have a reading problem. I have written TWICE that an obligation to Ukraine is irrelevant. I said they have an obligation to support the United States of America in its efforts, not the least of which is because the United States of America has been feeding and defending them for 75 years, and buying their defense for them.

For 150 BILLION DOLLARS one expects a little help and gratitude when the opportunity arises. Apparently the self entitled and money hungry "wait we are special" of Israel don't give a shit. They be back with their hand out for another 3.8 billion soon.

Putin must be smirking big time, for 1/1000th the cost he has made Syria obligated to send 40,000 mercenaries to help his war of conquest. And hell, we can't even expect Israel to give permission to someone else to give some licensed drones to the effort?

So quit yammering and dodging about Ukraine, you are smart enough not to act like a clueless fool. If you don't have a response to their obligation as an ally of the US, then say you support Israel more than America...
 

Juks

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
5,294
Reaction score
4,418
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
Most of the Israeli citizens are not descendants of holocaust survivors but Israel has very much used the association in their advantage in the conflict with the Palestinians for example. Zelensky is a descendant from the holocaust victims. I believe that is what Zelensky is referring to when he says “Israel needs to give answers to these questions, and after that, live with them” He is calling their most compelling card in their foreign policies and says they will lose it unless they take sides. Hence they will lose much of the unconditional support from the west.



To the subject belongs that almost every holocaust survivor has reframed from commenting on the conflict with the Palestinians. Those that have, have al been critical against Israel’s treatment of the Palestinians and their settler policy.
 
  • Like
Reactions: PoS

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,987
Reaction score
7,394
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Yes, but US support for Israel is a complicated issue. Not as simple as you might think.

Which also applies to Israel's relationship with Russia. Israel is home to a core Russian-Jewish population of about 15% of their population.


So that 15 percent of the Russian Jews think Putin fascism is cool? Does a country whose founding population experienced attempted genocide have a clue as to the kind of people that did it?

I'm sorry, its "not that complicated". It's more than ironic that Germany and Israel have been finding excuses not to assist... one because they think it makes them look bad and the other because it might require a little risk. Both seem to suffer from a sense of righteous entitlement to dodge the issue based the experiences and outcome of WWII.
 

Juks

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 28, 2020
Messages
5,294
Reaction score
4,418
Gender
Undisclosed
Political Leaning
Socialist
So that 15 percent of the Russian Jews think Putin fascism is cool? Does a country whose founding population experienced attempted genocide have a clue as to the kind of people that did it?

I'm sorry, its "not that complicated". It's more than ironic that Germany and Israel have been finding excuses not to assist... one because they think it makes them look bad and the other because it might require a little risk. Both seem to suffer from a sense of righteous entitlement to dodge the issue based the experiences and outcome of WWII.
I don't think that is it. Germany , yes because they were dependent on Russia for electricity (which is kind of important, you can't just take it away) but they sorted it out with the help of US, that has sold gas to Germany to make sure that even though expensive they will not go without and I also think that Germany didn't believe Russia would invade.

Israel is something else. They have a difficult situation surrounded by authoritan societies with little democracy and based in religion that opposes them. This has made them very protectionalistic and also very religious conservative. Even more so from the immigrants from Russia that are ultra conservative jews. To gain support for this they kind of play both sides and uses the Jewish genocide as a greencard to gain support for any and al policies no matter what they entails.

Zelensky is correct, not helping the Ukraine or installing sanctions in line with the west could change this for Israel for the simple reason that Zelensky is closer to those atrocities than the Israeli goverment and politicians are.
 
Last edited:

joluoto

DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 8, 2020
Messages
8,195
Reaction score
4,111
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Most likely Israel will keep doing nothing. Israel is only able to operate in Syrian airspace through the Russians, and if Russia suddenly don't want to work with them anymore, well Assad sure as hell won't let them do it without Russia telling him to.
 

TheParser

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 12, 2018
Messages
12,921
Reaction score
6,184
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Moderate
Let's tell it as it is.

Israel has to do what it feels is in its best interests.

It apparently feels that Russia may play a big role in its future endeavors.

In blunt words, Israeli leaders may feel that -- in the long run -- it will be more productive to kiss up to Russia than to Ukraine (or even a changing United States).
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,539
Reaction score
66,507
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Most likely Israel will keep doing nothing. Israel is only able to operate in Syrian airspace through the Russians, and if Russia suddenly don't want to work with them anymore, well Assad sure as hell won't let them do it without Russia telling him to.

This is not exactly true.

Israel typically destroys targets in Syria via "stand-off" attacks. This means that Isreali jets fire missiles into Syria via either Isreali or Jordanian airspace.

By not entering Syrian airspace, the IDF does not need to worry about its jets being shot down by Russian S-400 anti-air systems.

Israel will lose much support in the West for not supporting Ukraine. They'll get no further sympathy from me and I will begin opposing US funding for their defense industry.
 

Tigerace117

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 30, 2016
Messages
61,752
Reaction score
16,392
Location
Chicago
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Apparently, you have a reading problem. I have written TWICE that an obligation to Ukraine is irrelevant. I said they have an obligation to support the United States of America in its efforts, not the least of which is because the United States of America has been feeding and defending them for 75 years, and buying their defense for them.

For 150 BILLION DOLLARS one expects a little help and gratitude when the opportunity arises. Apparently the self entitled and money hungry "wait we are special" of Israel don't give a shit. They be back with their hand out for another 3.8 billion soon.

Putin must be smirking big time, for 1/1000th the cost he has made Syria obligated to send 40,000 mercenaries to help his war of conquest. And hell, we can't even expect Israel to give permission to someone else to give some licensed drones to the effort?

So quit yammering and dodging about Ukraine, you are smart enough not to act like a clueless fool. If you don't have a response to their obligation as an ally of the US, then say you support Israel more than America...

Nor are they obligated to jump just because you say “frog”, funnily enough. That kind of arrogance has gotten the US into more trouble over the years than literally anything else.

Syria is pretty much entirely dependent on Putin’s good will keeping Assad’s rickety dictatorship afloat. The two situations aren’t even remotely comparable.
 

PoS

Minister of Love
DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 24, 2014
Messages
28,961
Reaction score
22,523
Location
Oceania
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
For 75 years the US has protected, funded, supplied, and defended Israel more than any other country in the world. In return, Israel has contributed nothing. The history of wars in the middle east have entirely or partially had Israel as its root, and US soldiers have died on behalf of several countries in that region...including Israel.

I find it morally appalling - so much so that unless Israel shows some god damn gratitude by helping Ukraine with their drones and anti-ballistic missile system, I will be one of millions who will write them off politically.

It's outrageous.

I totally agree. Isreal is Russia's toady and its time for the US to stop giving it aid.
 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,987
Reaction score
7,394
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Most likely Israel will keep doing nothing. Israel is only able to operate in Syrian airspace through the Russians, and if Russia suddenly don't want to work with them anymore, well Assad sure as hell won't let them do it without Russia telling him to.

Israel hasn't had a problem in suppressing Syrian air defense, or what's left of it, in many decades. And Russia is in no position to get into any kind of conflict with Israel after the beating it is taking in Ukraine. The last thing Russia wants is to another technologically sophisticated country piling on.

Israel has had no problem selling Iron dome to countries like Azerbaijan and UAE, its a tidy profit. And under Netanyahu, who prides himself with his friendship with Putin,
Israel was even closer to the despot, luring Trump into a three way relationship (which Trump jumped at).

And I have no problem with Israel being cautious, nor in it requesting some sort of US help in Syria should Russia give it trouble. But Israel should be decide who it's allies are and who its enemies are. If Russia, Syria, China are part of the new axis of evil and the new rise is in autocracy's Israel should be held accountable.

To that end, I welcome Graham's rebuke of Israel for refusing to sell stingers to Ukraine. And I especially support Trump critical Kinzinger's (R) comments:

"I deeply support our relationship with Israel. But supporting friends doesn’t mean we look past differences. We have stood with Israel and will continue to do so. But at the moment there is a battle between Good and Evil, between a world based on raw power or one based on the post WW2 rules," he said.

"Everyone must pick a side. The outcome of this fight will impact the world my son grows up in, and now is the time to call anyone to the carpet who does not do their utmost," Kinzinger continued, adding that "if we don’t want to directly attack Russia, then our leverage is in the world uniting in sanctions and assistance for the people of Ukraine. This includes everyone, and Israel doesn’t have a special exemption. Hopefully they will do the right thing."


Biden needs to get a spine and play hardball with Israel... get on the western democracy bus or get off the bus. ... we don't need a ungrateful sponger with their hand out for billions every year.



 
Last edited:

snakestretcher

DP Veteran
Joined
Feb 25, 2019
Messages
41,654
Reaction score
17,243
Location
Devonshire, England
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Liberal
Except for the fact that they aren’t. Israel is not obligated to do anything for Ukraine, no matter how much you want them to. If they chose to do so, great. But pretending they have some imaginary obligation is flat out wrong.
What Israel needs to do is shit or get off the pot.
 

Nilhus

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 7, 2019
Messages
617
Reaction score
127
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Libertarian
Zelensky isn't a nazi, h is a jew and descendant from holocaust victims....
Zelensky is a ****tarded Nazi regardless of his origin!

No. The SS were not asking anyone to lay down arms, they wanted to kill people for the sake of killing people. Stephan Bandera - regarded by many as a founder of Ukraine, was a Nazi collaborator.

The Ukrainians are still celebrating Waffen SS:

Hundreds in Ukraine attend marches celebrating Nazi SS soldiers​






And the shameless ignorant moron Zelensky just asked help from Israel claiming that Ukraine helped the jews, when in reality the majority of them helped killing the jews.
 

Apocalypse

DEATH TO ANTARCTICA!!!
DP Veteran
Joined
May 14, 2009
Messages
20,599
Reaction score
6,456
Location
Israel
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Centrist
They are obligated to show some gratitude to the US, and our interest in helping Ukraine. DUH!
Have you heard the US asking Israel to provide such defense systems to Ukraine?
 

Rogue Valley

Putin = War Criminal
DP Veteran
Joined
Apr 18, 2013
Messages
81,539
Reaction score
66,507
Location
Barsoom
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Have you heard the US asking Israel to provide such defense systems to Ukraine?

Must Isreal be reminded that it pretends to be a Western democracy?

I've supported Israel for the most part, thinking it was the least worse choice in the ME.

No longer though. I've had enough of Jerusalem's hypocrisy.
 

maxparrish

Conservatarian
DP Veteran
Joined
Sep 28, 2011
Messages
11,987
Reaction score
7,394
Location
SF Bay Area
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Conservative
Have you heard the US asking Israel to provide such defense systems to Ukraine?

The US may or may not have, but presumably the Biden administration has had the moral fortitude to ask Israel to do more. Hell, they won't even impose sanctions.
 
Top Bottom