Your views on euthanisia, assisted suicide, suicide and attempted suicide.

[CaptainCourtesy]

We disagree, Redress. :-( I think anyone should be able to voluntarily commit suicide with assistance. This is especially true of those with psychological illness, as let's face it, they aren't curable only treatable. The only concern I have is for a psychologically disturbed patient to be under the influence of someone else encouraging they volunteer. SO there are rules:

As stated earlier in the thread...
Terminal patient: after a timely review and psychological interview for intent.
Minors: with a review, a psychological interview and parental or guardian consent
All other individuals: a review and psychological interview.

The psychological interview is to allow psychologically afflicted patients to pass. It is to eliminate external influence on the decision.

The degree with which I disagree with this post knows no bounds. If someone has a psychiatric illness and wants to commit suicide, their desire to commit suicide is a symptom of that illness. It is unethical to treat an illness by encouraging the continuation of a symptom that will cause that patient harm. No ethical psychologist, psychiatrist, therapist, or any other mental health professional would sign off on this. It would be like giving an alcoholic a lethal amount of alcohol, or a cancer patient some plutonium.

I also reject the statement that psychological illnesses are only treatable. That's like saying that cancer patients are only treatable. Both disorders can be in remission and not reoccur. One does not treat an illness by making a major symptom worse.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Clinical depression does not pass. However it can be reduced to the point of being asymptomatic(I believe that is the appropriate word...working from memory), ie the person does not feel depressed. Being in depression is not a day to day thing, it is every single day. Thankfully, in many cases, SSRI's and other meds can help. CC is the professional expert on the topic, and I am sure he will be along at some point and expand/correct this.

I would say that this is pretty accurate. SSRI's and therapy combined can make serious depression asymptomatic. Depression is very treatable. Assisted suicide should never be an option for those who suffer from any psychiatric disorder. Their disorder makes it impossible for them to make a decision solely based on rationality.

 

[reefedjib]

The degree with which I disagree with this post knows no bounds. If someone has a psychiatric illness and wants to commit suicide, their desire to commit suicide is a symptom of that illness. It is unethical to treat an illness by encouraging the continuation of a symptom that will cause that patient harm. No ethical psychologist, psychiatrist, therapist, or any other mental health professional would sign off on this. It would be like giving an alcoholic a lethal amount of alcohol, or a cancer patient some plutonium.

I also reject the statement that psychological illnesses are only treatable. That's like saying that cancer patients are only treatable. Both disorders can be in remission and not reoccur. One does not treat an illness by making a major symptom worse.

I understand what you are saying - especially since I have been there myself and am currently in "remission". However, I think that this decision ought to be a personal choice, for whatever reason: psychological, economic, terminal illness, or otherwise sound body and mind. It's a personal choice.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I understand what you are saying - especially since I have been there myself and am currently in "remission". However, I think that this decision ought to be a personal choice, for whatever reason: psychological, economic, terminal illness, or otherwise sound body and mind. It's a personal choice.

Suicidal ideation is a symptom of several psychological disorders. One cannot make an informed personal choice when that person is in the throws of that disorder. The illness is treatable. One does not accept the decision to feed into a symptom when that person cannot make a clear decision on that issue. The illness blinds their ability to do so. No way should this EVER occur with psychological disorders. I understand your struggles. Doesn't change my view one bit.

 

[reefedjib]

Suicidal ideation is a symptom of several psychological disorders. One cannot make an informed personal choice when that person is in the throws of that disorder. The illness is treatable. One does not accept the decision to feed into a symptom when that person cannot make a clear decision on that issue. The illness blinds their ability to do so. No way should this EVER occur with psychological disorders. I understand your struggles. Doesn't change my view one bit.

I understand that psychological disorders can create the symptom of suicidal ideation and that that results in the judgement of the afflicted to be unable to make a clear decision. I think it would also make the afflicted subject to suggestion from parents, friends, other. I am wary of suggestibility. I see your point on clouded decision making.

For a person who is not afflicted with a psychological disorder - would you allow that they can make a sound decision in this matter and be allowed to commit assisted suicide?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

I understand that psychological disorders can create the symptom of suicidal ideation and that that results in the judgement of the afflicted to be unable to make a clear decision. I think it would also make the afflicted subject to suggestion from parents, friends, other. I am wary of suggestibility. I see your point on clouded decision making.

Thank you.

For a person who is not afflicted with a psychological disorder - would you allow that they can make a sound decision in this matter and be allowed to commit assisted suicide?

After a psychological review determines that they have no psychological disorder, I would support this decision in cases of terminal and seriously degenerative illnesses.

 

[reefedjib]

After a psychological review determines that they have no psychological disorder, I would support this decision in cases of terminal and seriously degenerative illnesses.

And so I must ask, what about an individual with a terminal or seriously degenerative illness, who is also afflicted with a psychological disorder? Which takes precedence?

 

[reefedjib]

Suicidal ideation is a symptom of several psychological disorders. One cannot make an informed personal choice when that person is in the throws of that disorder. The illness is treatable. One does not accept the decision to feed into a symptom when that person cannot make a clear decision on that issue. The illness blinds their ability to do so. No way should this EVER occur with psychological disorders. I understand your struggles. Doesn't change my view one bit.

On further reflection, I must comment again. I still understand the point of a patient of psychological disorder having clouded thinking. Yet, it seems discriminatory to prevent their making a decision, as well.

You see, I have always been a functioning Bipolar 1 person (aside from a week long stay for voluntary hospitalization after my own suicide attempt - it was an excellent experience as I learned CBT there and found I have used many cognitive distortions in my life). As such, I make all the decisions in my life, regarding employment, living conditions, finances - I am fully functional. However, in this area I would be denied, and given the balance of opinion being that this should only be available to terminal or degenerative diseased patients, if I ever was so afflicted, I still could not make a decision to end my life. This disturbs me. Kind of like an equal rights kind of thought.

I just thought I would comment on this.

PS. CC, you have commented before on your preferred system of therapy, not CBT. What was it again? Thanks!

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Suicidal ideation is a symptom of several psychological disorders. One cannot make an informed personal choice when that person is in the throws of that disorder.

There's the rub. You say that people can only choose suicide when they're rational, and then use the fact that they want suicide as evidence they're irrational. Suicidal ideation is not a symptom of psychiatric illness, it is a response to the symptoms of psychiatric illness, just as it is a response to the symptoms of terminal illness or any other condition that makes life unbearable. You are too fixated upon the notion that they can be helped to acknowledge that help may not be what they want or need.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

And so I must ask, what about an individual with a terminal or seriously degenerative illness, who is also afflicted with a psychological disorder? Which takes precedence?

Depends on whether the disorder was caused by by the illness or the response to the illness, or whether it is an entity totally unto itself and/or predated the illness. In the first case, the illness takes precedence. In the second, further psychological review would need to be done. The seriousness of both would need to be assessed. It would not be clear cut; either decision could be rendered.

 

[Jetboogieman]

"Yoh! check it! Whats wiv all dah youth in Asia, that's Been killin all dese old people?"

10 boogieman points to anyone who knows where that's from.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

There's the rub. You say that people can only choose suicide when they're rational, and then use the fact that they want suicide as evidence they're irrational. Suicidal ideation is not a symptom of psychiatric illness, it is a response to the symptoms of psychiatric illness, just as it is a response to the symptoms of terminal illness or any other condition that makes life unbearable. You are too fixated upon the notion that they can be helped to acknowledge that help may not be what they want or need.

I completely disagree. Suicidal ideation is a symptom of a psychiatric illness. A suicidal gesture would be a response. One can have suicidal ideation without acting on it, or having any intent to act on it. Suicidal ideation is a clinical term, used to identify symptons of a psychiatirc disorder that are manifested by thoughts of death or thoughts of killing oneself. Action is not required. In fact, action would denote suicidal gestures, something different. Wanting to die because of a terminal/degenerative illness is a different animal. It is not caused by any psychiatric disorder. It is a situational reaction and would not meat the criteria for any psychological diagnosis. If it did, I would question the response to this desire, also.

It is irrelevant as to what someone needs/wants when they are not emotionally stable to be able to make those decisions in a rational way.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

On further reflection, I must comment again. I still understand the point of a patient of psychological disorder having clouded thinking. Yet, it seems discriminatory to prevent their making a decision, as well.

Not in the least. In this area, they are unable to make this decision. The illness affects their ability to make this decision, competently.

You see, I have always been a functioning Bipolar 1 person (aside from a week long stay for voluntary hospitalization after my own suicide attempt - it was an excellent experience as I learned CBT there and found I have used many cognitive distortions in my life). As such, I make all the decisions in my life, regarding employment, living conditions, finances - I am fully functional. However, in this area I would be denied, and given the balance of opinion being that this should only be available to terminal or degenerative diseased patients, if I ever was so afflicted, I still could not make a decision to end my life. This disturbs me. Kind of like an equal rights kind of thought.

If you had BOTH, a significant review would need to occur, IMO, to determine which was more prevelent. My guess would be that the terminal illness would win out, however, with the co-morbid psychological disorder, a thorough examination would need to be done.

I just thought I would comment on this.

PS. CC, you have commented before on your preferred system of therapy, not CBT. What was it again? Thanks!

Psychodynamic therapy.

 

[spud_meister]

"Yoh! check it! Whats wiv all dah youth in Asia, that's Been killin all dese old people?"

10 boogieman points to anyone who knows where that's from.

i think it's from a sacha baron cohen movie, but i'm not sure which one.

 

[Jetboogieman]

i think it's from a sacha baron cohen movie, but i'm not sure which one.

Just for knowing that you get 10 boogieman points.

It's Ali-G

I can never even see the word euthanasia without thinking of that line... He was a comic genius...

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I completely disagree. Suicidal ideation is a symptom of a psychiatric illness.

Unless they're suffering from some other condition that you thinks justifies suicide. And this is my problem with your position, and the position of the medical establishment-- you are claiming that you are the only ones with the training to decide whether or not someone's life is worth living when that judgement and that decision belongs rightfully, in all cases, with the person who must live the life whose terms you are dictating.

Wanting to die because of a terminal/degenerative illness is a different animal. It is not caused by any psychiatric disorder.

By definition. And by nothing but definition, because your rationality argument is nothing but circular reasoning.

It is irrelevant as to what someone needs/wants when they are not emotionally stable to be able to make those decisions in a rational way.

It is not your place to decide.

 

[Dav]

You are too fixated upon the notion that they can be helped to acknowledge that help may not be what they want or need.

Help is what they need, if they are depressed. And most of the time, it is what they want as well - most suicide attempts are done half-heartedly, with the conscious or subconscious hope that even if they don't succeed (as often happens), people will realize how much pain they are in because they tried. But even if they are serious about it, help is what they need. It is what anyone with that level of depression needs, because severe depression is not permanent. As CC said, it would be unethical for any doctor who has taken an oath to help people to lead someone in need of help to their grave... not to mention the effect this would have on their family and others close to them, who would rightfully be doing everything in their power to stop it from happening.

Many people who seriously tried suicide are eventually glad they didn't go through it. But nobody who did go through with suicide can regret it later, because they are permanently and irreversably dead.

 

[Dav]

Unless they're suffering from some other condition that you thinks justifies suicide. And this is my problem with your position, and the position of the medical establishment-- you are claiming that you are the only ones with the training to decide whether or not someone's life is worth living when that judgement and that decision belongs rightfully, in all cases, with the person who must live the life whose terms you are dictating.

That's not quite accurate... if he's arguing in favor of euthanesia for the terminally ill, then that is a permanent condition which will lead to death anyways... whereas depression is a temporary and very reversable condition. He doesn't want to decide which life is "worth living", just which condition is reversable enough to not warrant an irreversable "solution", especially at the hands of a doctor.

 

[lizzie]

In my opinion, euthanisia and assisted should be legal.
I am also against hospitalizing people against their will for attempting suicide.

Whether or not we agree with something shouldn't be a reason to ban it. In a free society we are our owners.

It's my life. It's your life. As we have a right to our life that includes the right to end it if we feel it's necessary.

It is the role of government to protect or civil liberties. Not to protect us from ourselves.

The same can be said for many other laws.

Post your thoughts here.

That's a difficult issue to address for me.
On euthanasia and assisted suicide, I'm a little ambivalent, because it's my personal view that if you want to kill yourself, you should do it yourself. Granted, there are circumstances where that's not possible, but this seems to be the minority. Suicide is a very serious matter to me, and I hate to see anyone who is in the mental state where this seems to be the best option.
I also have some problems with the possibility of individuals being able to kill a family member off, then saying it's what the person wanted. Yeah, I realize it may be silly to even consider this, but people can get pretty desparate in certain situations.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

I'm a little ambivalent, because it's my personal view that if you want to kill yourself, you should do it yourself.

I would rather have assistance. I do not want to die alone, and an assistant can guarantee that the job is finished.

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

Unless they're suffering from some other condition that you thinks justifies suicide. And this is my problem with your position, and the position of the medical establishment-- you are claiming that you are the only ones with the training to decide whether or not someone's life is worth living when that judgement and that decision belongs rightfully, in all cases, with the person who must live the life whose terms you are dictating.

No. What I am saying is that if you are suffering from a mental illness and that one of those symptoms is suicidal ideation, that mental illness is a mitigating factor that prevents you from accurately assessing your ability to judge and make that decision.

By definition. And by nothing but definition, because your rationality argument is nothing but circular reasoning.

Not in the least. One can easily see the difference through criteria and standards via a differential diagnosis.

It is not your place to decide.

If they have a mental illness, they cannot accurately assess to make that decision. It is not my place to decide, but it IS my place to treat them so they can.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

No. What I am saying is that if you are suffering from a mental illness and that one of those symptoms is suicidal ideation, that mental illness is a mitigating factor that prevents you from accurately assessing your ability to judge and make that decision.

In other words, you are free to make that decision unless you want to make a decision they disagree with.

Not in the least. One can easily see the difference through criteria and standards via a differential diagnosis.

Except one of your "criteria" is that the patient wants to die. You are saying that people have the right to die unless they are irrational, and then declaring that anyone who wants to die is irrational and thus should not be allowed to die. How is that not circular reasoning, and how does this constitute anything less than you granting yourself the authority to determine whose suffering justifies suicide and whose does not?

 

[CaptainCourtesy]

In other words, you are free to make that decision unless you want to make a decision they disagree with.

No, I'm not saying that. Major Depression, for example, has some very specific criteria that must be met for the diagnosis to be given. I someone wants to die, and meets that criteria, they have that disorder... mitigating them from accurately assessing their ability to judge and make that decision. If they do NOT meet the criteria, then their ability to assess would not be mitigated. Like I sadi, two different situtations, dependant on a set of criteria that diagnoses a disorder.

Except one of your "criteria" is that the patient wants to die. You are saying that people have the right to die unless they are irrational, and then declaring that anyone who wants to die is irrational and thus should not be allowed to die. How is that not circular reasoning, and how does this constitute anything less than you granting yourself the authority to determine whose suffering justifies suicide and whose does not?

Your comment above is contradictory. "One of my criteria IS that the patient wants to die". "Anyone who wants to die is irrational". These two things are contradictory. I said the first. I never said the second. Read above, in this post.

 

[BDBoop]

Same. Also - who knows how to do this? Taking every pill in the medicine chest is probably not recommended. As in - certain mixtures causing vomiting which would render the entire exercise futile.

And I wouldn't want my cat left behind until somebody noticed I had passed.

I would rather have assistance. I do not want to die alone, and an assistant can guarantee that the job is finished.

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Same. Also - who knows how to do this?

A large caliber firearm directed backward and upward from inside the mouth is practically guaranteed. If it does not succeed, your friend would be able to fire a second shot.

In Japan, a man would ask a trusted friend to watch his ritual suicide and would cut his friend's head off once he showed signs of discomfort.

Taking every pill in the medicine chest is probably not recommended.

I have a large supply of benzodiazepenes and heart medication. That and a bottle of Schnapps should do the trick easily.

It's not hard to get a prescription for most things.