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Your thoughts on Agnostics

Rich2018 said:
How many ?

Or is there an infinite number of gods ?

Was the creation of the universe a joint effort or is there a division of labor ?
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How the hell would I know? LOL
 
Rich2018 said:
Go watch the Atheist Experience on You Tube. They will explain this over and over.
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And he doesn't care. At this point, he's just a troll, telling people what labels they are allowed to use. It's a pointless waste of time.
 
Rich2018 said:
But Omega Man says the former claims certainty - are you saying he is wrong ?


You still haven't answered the question as to why, on the assumption that god does in fact exist, it is not possible to have knowledge of him.

Because I don't know any Agnostics who've ever said it is impossible to know god...even if god wills it.
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The agnostic position is that knowledge of god is impossible one way or the other forever and ever. Amen.
 
Omega Man said:
That there are no gods, thus their atheism.

OM
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RAMOSS said:
Incorrect. The precise argument [is] that there is no evidence for a god, so they don't believe in any
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And that argument, RAMOSS, commits the Argument From Ignorance Fallacy... Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence... Lack of evidence is NOT a proof...
 
Rich2018 said:
Wrong.
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Omega Man was actually correct...

Rich2018 said:
An Atheist can't be certain about this.
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Irrelevant.

Rich2018 said:
Indeed Atheists go to great lengths to state that they do not say that there is no god.
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Compositional Error Fallacy... zyzygy is one atheist on these forums who openly asserts that there is no god.

Rich2018 said:
Theists, when attacking Atheists, claim that Atheists say there is no god - and Atheists immediately denounce this as false.
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Compositional Error Fallacy... I am a Theist, and I do not attack Atheists. I may not have faith in their religion, but I do not attack them for it. I do claim that Atheists believe there is no god because that's the very definition of what Atheism IS... It is an alternative position to Theism, which believes there is a god(s).

Rich2018 said:
...deleted 'lack of understanding' mantra... FYI, I am an Atheist but I would never say with absolute certainty that there is no god.
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Irrelevant in determining what an Atheist is... your level of certainty in what the truth actually is is irrelevant in that regard... All that is relevant is that you are choosing to believe (on a faith basis) that god(s) do not exist. That is what atheism is...

Rich2018 said:
Indeed I wouldn't claim anything with absolute certainty.
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You wouldn't claim with absolute certainty that, when using the base-10 numbering system, 2+2=4?? In other words, you wouldn't claim to be absolutely certain of proofs?

Rich2018 said:
The only people claiming to have absolute certainty are Theists (and I suppose Gnostics).
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WRONG. We all hold beliefs that we are absolutely certain of... My above example is one such belief...

Also, what about the 'Church of Global Warming' members who claim that there has been a "consensus" among "97% of scientists" that Climate Change is real and that it is a global emergency that needs to immediately be acted upon??

What about an atheist like zyzygy, who claims absolute certainty of god(s) not existing? Claiming "absolute certainty" is what fundamentalists of any given religion do... They commit the Circular Argument Fallacy and the Argument From Ignorance Fallacy.
 
Rich2018 said:
That is a definition of a Theist

Someone who believes in a god without any proof. This belief in the absence of proof is called "faith"
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Correct. A theist believes in the existence of god(s), and they do so on a faith basis, since faith is another word for 'circular reasoning'... An atheist believes in the nonexistence of god(s) on this same basis...

Rich2018 said:
That is the definition of an Atheist

Someone who doesn't believe in god.
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They believe that god(s) do not exist, on a faith basis.

Rich2018 said:
Atheists says that they don't find the arguments for the existence of god convincing, but they can't say for sure that god does NOT exist.
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This is a subtle Argument From Ignorance Fallacy... This is claiming that the main reason why "Atheists" are convinced of their religion is a 'lack of evidence' to the contrary... Lack of evidence is not a proof.

Rich2018 said:
The difference between an Atheist and an Agnostic is that an Atheist is resigned to the fact that there is no god and no afterlife (though accepts that he/she could still be wrong)

The Agnostic has no proof of god's existence, therefore doesn't believe as he/she wants that proof before believing. So an Agnostic is someone who doesn't yet believe in god, but who is still looking and wants to believe.
An Agnostic who no longer is looking for god has given up on his existence and is therefore an Atheist.
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Not at all... Proof and "wanting to believe" has nothing to do with what Atheism and Agnosticism are...

Theism is the belief that god(s) exist.
Atheism is the belief that god(s) do not exist.
Agnosticism doesn't give an owl's hoot either way.

Rich2018 said:
These I would call smart-asses.

The Bible, Torah and Koran are not exactly hard to find.
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Correct.
 
RAMOSS said:
You can dispute it, but that is how many people use those terms. You can redefine it all you want, but the way I described it is a very common modern use age.
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Appeal to the Masses Fallacy.
 
Rich2018 said:
OK, so what ?

If you want to debate, then debate. I rebutted every point you made. If you disagree, make a convincing case.

Saying that "lots of people agree with me" is not the basis for an argument.
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Correct. He is committing the Appeal to the Masses Fallacy.

Rich2018 said:
Gfm and Into the Night do that - and you're much better than they are.
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Lie. We have never used such argumentation... It is a logical fallacy to argue in that type of manner...
 
RAMOSS said:
I am pointing out the common usage. So far, I don't see you providing a source, or do antyhing but argument by assertion. I provided a source.
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You are also arguing that the 'common usage' is correct because it is 'common'... That is a logical fallacy, RAMOSS...
 
Rich2018 said:
This thread is titled: "Your Thoughts on Agnostics" (my bold)



These are my thoughts and my reasons for believing them. Hopefully I made clear and understandable points.


I'm aware of the "agnostic-atheist" idea and I dispute it because it makes no sense.
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Yup, you've made your points... I disagree with many of them, and have explained why. I do agree with your rejection of the "agnostic-atheist" idea, however. I've went back and forth with RAMOSS over that one quite a bit in the past, and he's offering you no better argumentation than he offered me...
 
Cephus said:
And he doesn't care. At this point, he's just a troll, telling people what labels they are allowed to use. It's a pointless waste of time.
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Who is a troll ?


This is actually quite important and something Theists have a hard time accepting.

An Atheist doesn't believe in god...but accepts that god might exist.

An Atheist is simply saying that no convincing case for the existence of god has been made.
That does NOT equal saying that NO GOD EXISTS (or gods).
 
devildavid said:
The agnostic position is that knowledge of god is impossible one way or the other forever and ever. Amen.
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That doesn't make sense.


If god exists, he is all powerful....are you saying that Agnostics believe that if god exists, he is incapable of communicating with humans ?
 
I’m not really sure what I think about agnostics.
 
Rich2018 said:
Sorry that Wiki page makes no sense.

The concept of an Agnostic Theist is a contradiction in terms. Anyone believe in a supreme being cannot think that knowledge of that being is impossible.

As is an Agnostic Atheist. If you don't believe in god and aren't trying to find god, then you're an Atheist.



Someone once drew a two dimensional graph - the Y axis was "knowledge of god", the X axis was "belief in god".
The 4 quadrants were labelled Atheist-Agnostic or Gnostic-Theist etc...which is the basis of this Wiki page.

At the far left of the X axis was the Atheist who didn't believe in god...far right was the Theist.
Now I accept people can have different levels on belief - basically how convinced they are of a proposition being true.


However when it comes to the Y axis, there are no incremental notches. You either have knowledge or you don't.
QED: The 2 dimensional model is wrecked.


Hence I dispute that the terms Agnostic, Gnostic, Theist and Atheist can ever be combined.
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Yup, you're making a similar case that I made against RAMOSS concerning the "knowledge/belief chart" that he adheres to...
 
Rich2018 said:
That doesn't make sense.


If god exists, he is all powerful....are you saying that Agnostics believe that if god exists, he is incapable of communicating with humans ?
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Agnosticism is not about belief.
 
devildavid said:
Agnosticism is not about belief.
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Didn't you say "the agnostic position is that knowledge of god is impossible..."


So therefore Agnostics believe that a man cannot interact with god - yes ?


Or are you going to be semantic pedantic and say they don't believe this but rather only think it ?



Either way, are you saying that Agnostics say that god, if he exists, is incapable of communicating with humans ?

This is like the 4th time of asking, are you going to actually answer?
 
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