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Your thoughts about Chile's Pinochet, 40 years after the coup.

What type of dicator was Pinochet


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eaglestar

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As many readers here know this issue is split for most people, some think he was a despot, mild, good, evil, progressive, etc etc etc type of dictator.

Chile news article
1973 Chilean Coup | Democracy Now!


In my view he was no doubt a dictator, however from my foreign to Chile perspective he was actually not all too bad as he did move the economy forward, with a high social cost, yes.

Give me your educated (not random please) vote on the type of dictator he was.
 
As many readers here know this issue is split for most people, some think he was a despot, mild, good, evil, progressive, etc etc etc type of dictator.

Chile news article
1973 Chilean Coup | Democracy Now!


In my view he was no doubt a dictator, however from my foreign to Chile perspective he was actually not all too bad as he did move the economy forward, with a high social cost, yes.

Give me your educated (not random please) vote on the type of dictator he was.

No such thing as a good dictator.
 
Screw Pinochet - long live Allende!
 
When Thatcher had to put her murderous pal under house arrest! How I laughed!
 
No such thing as a good dictator.

Please, Tito of Yugoslavia, Chavez (maybe? re-elected three times), José Figueras of Costa Rica (abolished the military as a dictator), Octavian of Rome (and the other 3 good dictators), Seriously man, Above I said EDUCATED vote/response/comment.

There are good dictators, end of story, often times they're even elected to be dictators. Further debate? make your own thread. This is one is to focus on Pinochet, so if you will comment it best be on Pinochet and his accomplishments/failures and why you feel they are such.
 
Please, Tito of Yugoslavia, Chavez (maybe? re-elected three times), José Figueras of Costa Rica (abolished the military as a dictator), Octavian of Rome (and the other 3 good dictators), Seriously man, Above I said EDUCATED vote/response/comment.

There are good dictators, end of story, often times they're even elected to be dictators. Further debate? make your own thread. This is one is to focus on Pinochet, so if you will comment it best be on Pinochet and his accomplishments/failures and why you feel they are such.

At the risk of repeating myself, there is NO SUCH THING as a good dictator.
 
As many readers here know this issue is split for most people, some think he was a despot, mild, good, evil, progressive, etc etc etc type of dictator.

Chile news article
1973 Chilean Coup | Democracy Now!


In my view he was no doubt a dictator, however from my foreign to Chile perspective he was actually not all too bad as he did move the economy forward, with a high social cost, yes.

Give me your educated (not random please) vote on the type of dictator he was.


Na man..my family lived during the 1970 election and through the coup. The economy under allende was good. Allende nationalized the copper mines, the wages were good, free education. When Pinochet came in the wages decreased, the University prices skyrocketed, he gave back the copper mines to the U.S. But the economy got so bad that he had to do the same thing as Allende...nationalized the copper mines...But he did create programs to help people buy homes.

But the truth is that the U.S intervention had nothing to do with money..Had everything to do with the stoping the domino effect of Marxism/Socialism.

I also blame the U.S for killing one of the best poets since walt whitman. pablo neruda....
 
Lets see here a guy who overthrew a democratically elected president and set up concentration camps is not "good", thats just evil.
 
Lets see here a guy who overthrew a democratically elected president and set up concentration camps is not "good", thats just evil.

Yes, almost as evil as the Castro-dictatorship in Cuba.
 
Yes, almost as evil as the Castro-dictatorship in Cuba.

ok.:roll:
Except Castro overthrew a dictator and then established himself as dictator, and he didnt set up massive concentration camps, and he extended social services to his people, and established a democratic congress.
Castro>Pinochet
 
ok.:roll:
Except Castro overthrew a dictator and then established himself as dictator, and he didnt set up massive concentration camps, and he extended social services to his people, and established a democratic congress.
Castro>Pinochet

Castro did establish concentration camps, suppressed all democracy, killed a lot more people than Pinochet, turned Cuba into one big prison and followed a disastrous economic policy.
 
Why are you diverting the thread away from Pinochet? Do you support him simply because he was right wing?

No, I didn't support Pinochet. Just illustrating that many of the people opposing Pinochet don't necessarily support democracy but are every bit as bad or worse.
 
my family lived during the 1970 election and through the coup. The economy under allende was good.

I don't know about that guy.
BBC NEWS | Business | Did Pinochet kill or cure Chile?

See I read here that the inflation rate was 1000% under Allende and later brought down to 10% under Pinochet, now I don't know which policies actually fixed this (or how long it took) might have been Allende's, but to say the economy was good is maybe an overstatement.

With 1000% inflation I'm not surprised that education skyrocketed as all public benefits were probably slashed and privatized in order to stabilize the economy.

I didn't know that Pinochet reverted to nationalizing the copper industry though.

One thing I don't understand is why "9 percent said he will go down as one of the greatest leaders in history" [First link under "chile"] Chile.
Why is that Chileans who live in Chile would make such statement?
 
I don't know about that guy.
BBC NEWS | Business | Did Pinochet kill or cure Chile?

See I read here that the inflation rate was 1000% under Allende and later brought down to 10% under Pinochet, now I don't know which policies actually fixed this (or how long it took) might have been Allende's, but to say the economy was good is maybe an overstatement.

With 1000% inflation I'm not surprised that education skyrocketed as all public benefits were probably slashed and privatized in order to stabilize the economy.

I didn't know that Pinochet reverted to nationalizing the copper industry though.

One thing I don't understand is why "9 percent said he will go down as one of the greatest leaders in history" [First link under "chile"] Chile.
Why is that Chileans who live in Chile would make such statement?

The Pinochet dictatorship was pretty brutal and repressive, but did manage to get the economy back on track and was broadly welcomed by the middle class (which was the main victim of Allende's pretty disastrous policies).
 
No, I didn't support Pinochet. Just illustrating that many of the people opposing Pinochet don't necessarily support democracy but are every bit as bad or worse.

Which is totally irrelevent to the thread topic. Leftist hypocrisy has nothing to do with peoples opinion of Pinochet, and only serves to derail the thread.
 

See I read here that the inflation rate was 1000% under Allende and later brought down to 10% under Pinochet, now I don't know which policies actually fixed this (or how long it took) might have been Allende's, but to say the economy was good is maybe an overstatement.



Unfortunately I cannot find any sources in the link you posted. I meant the economy for the working class which was the majority of people. Not for the rich.....

There was no inflation in his first term because the u.s and the right-wingers didn't interfere.

These policy measures were supported by widespread price controls. With nominal wage readjustments of over 40%-50%, nominal government expend- itures increasing by more than 60%, and money supply augmenting by more than loo%, the annual inflation rate of 1971 (22.1%) seems surprisingly low.

http://www.nber.org/chapters/c8301.pdf

Nixon FLooded the market with copper to bring down the number one export of Chile and destroy the Chilean economy.

The Dictator's Shadow: Life Under Augusto Pinochet - Heraldo Muñoz - Google Books

State Terrorism and the United States: From Counterinsurgency to the War on ... - Frederick Henry Gareau - Google Books

He even said he wanted to make the economy scream

"Make the Economy Scream": Secret Documents Show Nixon, Kissinger Role Backing 1973 Chile Coup | Democracy Now!

Actually increasing the wages minimized the inflation caused by Nixon and the right-wingers.

The inflation was also due to the right-wingers not selling food( they owned the majority of the land) because they didn't like socialism ( very similar to the business leaders in the U.S) to people hostile of allende. I don't have any evidence for this though I heard it in Austria during the coup.

So basically the nixon administration created the inflation because they didn't want socialism to spread.
 
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The Pinochet dictatorship was pretty brutal and repressive, but did manage to get the economy back on track and was broadly welcomed by the middle class (which was the main victim of Allende's pretty disastrous policies).

Victims, do you have any evidence ?
 

Dude, thats a 43 page pdf... can't you just give me a normal reference such as that, read page #x,
That's as good as no reference, and you posted a few more...

There was no inflation in his first term
Term? he was in office from November 4th 1970 to September 11th 1973, not even one term. If you meant in his first year, then it is obvious inflation wouldn't shot up in the first year as countries do have some sort of economic buffer, but even the 22% you quote is HIGH, as healthy is between 3-7%.

Here is a suitable reference since it won't take anyone here a few weeks to read:
http://www.inflation.eu/images/charts/infl-chart-3-1-54.jpg
Historic inflation of Chile since 1970.

I looked up your other references, Heraldo Muñoz fine, I won't read the book but I will accept the reference which may or may not be biased. The other guy, who is he? Bs. arts? history? masters? phd? mom's basement? seriously.

So basically the nixon administration created the inflation because they didn't want socialism to spread.
Yes, I believe this myself also however had the people been on the side of Allende the coupe wouldn't have succeeded.
For example if you take Venezuela as example, same story a coupe to get rid of Chavez but what happened? the military in the end was on Chavez's side, as was the people who re-elected him 3 times.
The fact that the US was pushing for a new government does not justify the dictatorship alone, the people of Chile did want change.
 
Victims, do you have any evidence ?

His "Chilean Path to Socialism" resulted in very high inflation, led to large-scale expropriations and ultimatemy provoked large-scale strikes by truckers, small businessmen, etc. which he tried but failed to suppress. I don't support the cruel and authoritarian dictatorship of Pinochet but Allende wasn't really a democrat either and was pretty much a disaster for Chile.
 
Dude, thats a 43 page pdf... can't you just give me a normal reference such as that, read page #x,
That's as good as no reference, and you posted a few more...

Dude its called ctrl-f or command-f. Learn to use your computer.....Since you couldn't.. its on page 196...

Term? he was in office from November 4th 1970 to September 11th 1973, not even one term. If you meant in his first year, then it is obvious inflation wouldn't shot up

in the first year as countries do have some sort of economic buffer, but even the 22% you quote is HIGH, as healthy is between 3-7%.

Yes I meant his first year, The inflation came down from 36% to 22% in his first year. Its on Page 196.. He put some of his reforms in by 1970

Here is a suitable reference since it won't take anyone here a few weeks to read:
http://www.inflation.eu/images/charts/infl-chart-3-1-54.jpg
Historic inflation of Chile since 1970.

Whats your point ? you you already agreed with the link I provided. Do you agree that nixon Sabotage the economy of allende ?

I looked up your other references, Heraldo Muñoz fine, I won't read the book but I will accept the reference which may or may not be biased. The other guy, who is he? Bs. arts? history? masters? phd? mom's basement? seriously.
And.... you want me to find more references saying how the nixon administration destroyed the economy of Chile during Allende? It is pretty clear...if nixon didn't intervene than we could have seen if the economy would have lasted.

Yes, I believe this myself also however had the people been on the side of Allende the coupe wouldn't have succeeded.
For example if you take Venezuela as example, same story a coupe to get rid of Chavez but what happened? the military in the end was on Chavez's side, as was the people who re-elected him 3 times.
The fact that the US was pushing for a new government does not justify the dictatorship alone, the people of Chile did want change.

I disagree...Allende wasn't trying to convince the military. He was trying to convince the middle class for socialism. That was his biggest mistake not siding with the military. Hugo Chavez was in the military, he learned from Allende and sided with the military. The people wanted Allende...Pablo Neruda, Víctor Jara, Sergio Ortega, Quilapayún and Inti-Illimani contributed towards the election of Allende. He had to be authoritative in order to counter the coup, which is the reason why there is still a socialist and communist party in Chile.
 
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His "Chilean Path to Socialism" resulted in very high inflation, led to large-scale expropriations and ultimatemy provoked large-scale strikes by truckers, small businessmen, etc. which he tried but failed to suppress. I don't support the cruel and authoritarian dictatorship of Pinochet but Allende wasn't really a democrat either and was pretty much a disaster for Chile.

You still didn't post any evidence....
 
Pinochet was not really a good leader, but he was better than the alternative. I really don't think Allende was a proper democrat either. Or else they could have just waited for another three years and kicked him out. He was similar to Chavez who only believe in Democracy in terms of voting, but then thinks that gives him the right to control freedom of speech, and the courts.

So Pinochet prevented Allende from destroying the country, but Chile living standards only improved significantly when Pinochet got replaced with Patricio Aylwin, a more moderate leader.
 
You still didn't post any evidence....

Here is what Wikipedia says about his years.

The short-term economic results of Minister of Economics Pedro Vuskovic's expansive monetary policy were unambiguously favorable: 12% industrial growth and an 8.6% increase in GDP, accompanied by major declines in Chile’s long-endemic chronic inflation (down from 34.9% to 22.1%) and unemployment (down to 3.8%). In 1972 the Chilean escudo changed 140%. The average Real GDP contracted between 1971 and 1973 at an annual rate of 5.6% ("negative growth"), and the government's fiscal deficit soared while foreign reserves declined.[11] The combination of inflation led to the rise of black markets in rice, beans, sugar, and flour, and a "disappearance" of such basic commodities from supermarket shelves.

In addition to the earlier-discussed provision of employment, Allende also raised wages on a number of occasions throughout 1970 and 1971. These rises in wages were negated by continuing increases in prices for food. Although price rises had also been high under Frei (27% a year between 1967 and 1970), a basic basket of consumer goods rose by 120% from 190 to 421 escudos in one month alone, August 1972. In the period 1970-72, while Allende was in government, exports fell 24% and imports rose 26%, with imports of food rising an estimated 149%.[12] Although nominal wages were rising, there was not a commensurate increase in the standard of living for the Chilean population.

The falls in exports were mostly due to a fall in the price of copper. Chile was at the mercy of international fluctuations in the value of its single most important export. As with almost half of developing countries, more than 50 per cent of Chile's export receipts were from a single primary commodity.[13] Adverse fluctuation in the international price of copper negatively affected the Chilean economy throughout 1971-2. The price of copper fell from a peak of $66 per ton in 1970 to only $48–9 in 1971 and 1972.[14] In addition to the hyperinflation, the fall in the value of copper and lack of economic aid would further depress the economy.

Initially, the governing coalition expected the unearned wage increases and the consequent increase in government spending to be corrected once the 'structural changes' like nationalisation and agrarian reforms were completed. However, by June 1972, Allende was beginning to see the economic hazards. The minister of economy was changed and some austerity measures introduced, but to little avail.[15]
[17]

Whats your point ? you you already agreed with the link I provided. Do you agree that nixon Sabotage the economy of allende ?
It's so pathetic when socialist accuse the US of their own failures. Its not easy to get hyperinflation, so if you get hyperinflation it means you are a failure.

No, I think copper prices dropped, and Allende tried to solve it by a massive expansionary policy and doing reforms that were destroying business. When economic output falls, and the monetary base massively increases then you will get hyperinflation.
 
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Here is what Wikipedia says about his years.

And I guess you didn't read any of my post that counter that accusation. Read the whole thread...then we can talk...
 
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