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Your Taxes Don't Pay For Anything

No you try reinvent the definition to suit your subjective opinion.

All accounting refers to is the system one chooses to record and summarize business and financial transactions and sometimes analyzing, verifying and reporting the results.

Accounting does not create money-it records the amount of money created.

Banks create M1 money by creating loans - expanding their balance sheets (that's the accounting) - using 100% credit. No funds are taken from deposit accounts, nor are any funds (or equity) taken from the bank itself. Banks simply mark up borrower's account by the amount of the loan, and hold the promissory note, worth somewhat more than the loan amount, as their asset. No pre-existing money is used to fund the loan. Upon loan disbursement, the settlement agent may or may not need to transfer reserves from payor's bank's reserve account to payee's bank's reserve account, depending on net interbank transactions. In other words, reserves don't fund the loans either.
In fact "Monetization" refers to the process or exercise of creating money.

Yeah - by buying debt. Like banks do when they create loans - they "buy" the promissory note by marking up borrower's account. All done on ledgers. Accounting.

You have an obnoxious habit of dictating to people they must use terms in a way that confirms to your preconceived biases and not how the words were intended to be used.

It probably feels that way when most of what you say is wrong.

Banks do not create money. They invest money which then brings them back a return on their investment through the interest rates they charge. They don't create the money. They generate an increase it he amount of money they have. The money already existed. It was created by the federal reserve. They are just re-routing certain amounts of it to themselves called profit so they can pay their employees and use the profit to reinvest and make money for customers who leave money in their bank in return for an interest payment given to them for keeping their money in that bank's account.

First of all, that's not how banks work, and that's not a matter of opinion or theory. The operational realities of banking have been well established already.


Second, if banks don't create money, explain how they "generate an increase in the amount of money they have" of pre-existing money. Do you really think that the Fed just creates more money so banks can make a profit? Your explanation is an accounting impossibility, and doesn't jibe with changing measures of the money supplies. M1 is far larger than MB.
Man get out in the world. Start with a bank manager. Go find out what a loan is.

Wow.

I would say the same thing to you. Read a bit on the subject.

 
I will keep this brief. In the real world, if the government does not pay off the amounts of money it borrowed, it has to pay interest as well on that amount of borrowed money it has not paid back. That interest compounds and is added to the principle amount not paid back. The next generations inherit a government still paying interest accumulating on a debt incurred many years ago. If you can't understand that and want to pretend interest does not compound and lead to inflation and future problems for future taxpayers then deny away,

And that debt continuously gets rolled over. By now, you may have noticed that the national debt seldom gets any smaller. Interest is simply paid for by issuing more bonds; nobody's tax dollars are paying for that. The debt just sits there; it doesn't play much of a role in the everyday economy.

We have been doing this for most of our 250+ years. The national debt continues to grow, and inflation is not a problem. In fact, over the past 40 years, when the national debt has grown a ton, inflation has been consistently low. So how can you blame inflation on the national debt when in most years inflation isn't a problem at all? And if you still choose to blame our present inflation on government debt, you are dismissing both the COVID shutdown and the war in Ukraine as causes of inflation.
 
What most of us argue is that we the people. at the grass roots level, will need to change our lifestyle. It means cutting back on certain things in our lives we take for granted like owning more than one car per family, driving our car everywhere-leaving the lights and air conditioning and heat on when we are not at home, eating less crappy food and certain foods, creating our own work rather than looking to work for others.

This is all happening slowly and painfully but we have a downsizing of post world war two waste happening in the first world. We are having to tighten our belts and do with less and learn our governments are not a magic cure and we will need to rely on each other in grass roots networking and finding alternatives to exchanging goods by debit card but instead by bartering actual services and products we make.

This is a silly argument, because you are treating money as a limited resource, when in fact money easily created when needed. The real limits on our existence are real resources - energy, food, housing, etc. Money can always be created to mobilize real resources.

Due to productivity increases, it only takes about 2% of the labor force to produce enough food to feed everybody. A relatively small part of the labor force produces all the necessities; the rest of the economy is basically fluff. That doesn't mean it's wasteful to, say, make movies, music, expensive wines, pedicures, etc., it just means that the economy is capable of supporting those luxuries.
 
Lol.

The successful business people I know have traits such as: common sense, integrity, perseverance, creativity, emotional stability. No theory can teach that. Its life skills you learn from growing up and choosing how you will deal with obstacles.

I went into a profession to help others. I was not a business man because I am obsessed with fighting for certain ideals. Others I know however are great business people but the key is they know how to adjust, compromise, adapt and they get people and they have a drive to build, create and form agreements with people and thanks to them, I had clients and I was proud of the work they did helping others.

Most people see business as evil profit makers exploiting others. I say business is in fact a social transaction that helps others through the making of profit if you want it to and that depends on you. That is as far as I go with theories on business.

I do not practice anymore.

I do teach business law, management, human resources now but I am old and I enjoy now lecturing instead of retiring and drooling. All I know is you get good and you get and bad people in everything we do including business and its all about balancing the extremes and using common sense and compromising and finding the right balance . Ok FM I will shut the phack up but I sure as hell agree with you lol.
I disagree. I think most people value business. After all it is the source of everyone's wealth. What people call greed is simply the profit motive. Profit is a necessity to keep a business alive. Profit is regulated in the economy by competition, the single thing that makes capitalism work for people.

When the U.S. was founded it was a union of states and each of those states had 12 competitors. We now have a centralized government with no competition. The problem is government, not the private sector. Government and media have propagandized the people. I think this is true of Canada as well.
 
And that debt continuously gets rolled over. By now, you may have noticed that the national debt seldom gets any smaller. Interest is simply paid for by issuing more bonds; nobody's tax dollars are paying for that. The debt just sits there; it doesn't play much of a role in the everyday economy.

We have been doing this for most of our 250+ years. The national debt continues to grow, and inflation is not a problem. In fact, over the past 40 years, when the national debt has grown a ton, inflation has been consistently low. So how can you blame inflation on the national debt when in most years inflation isn't a problem at all? And if you still choose to blame our present inflation on government debt, you are dismissing both the COVID shutdown and the war in Ukraine as causes of inflation.
What you call inflation is the CPI. You ignore government devaluation of the currency. It is very real and has been happening since the Coolidge administration. By the way federal government was clear of debt during the Jackson administration. Government stopped spending money it didn't have.
 
I disagree. I think most people value business. After all it is the source of everyone's wealth. What people call greed is simply the profit motive. Profit is a necessity to keep a business alive. Profit is regulated in the economy by competition, the single thing that makes capitalism work for people.

When the U.S. was founded it was a union of states and each of those states had 12 competitors. We now have a centralized government with no competition. The problem is government, not the private sector. Government and media have propagandized the people. I think this is true of Canada as well.
Do you consider yourself to be one of the "people" the Government and media have "propagandized"?
 
Do you consider yourself to be one of the "people" the Government and media have "propagandized"?
No. I don't fall for government propaganda. I disbelieve everything government tells me until it has private sector confirmation.
 
No. I don't fall for government propaganda. I disbelieve everything government tells me until it has private sector confirmation.
So, how do you determine which "people" you 'personally' choose to label as having been "propagandized by the Government and media"?
 
How do you think banks create money? Do you think that there is just some naturally occurring pile of money that everybody uses?
Banks do no create money. Federal government creates money. We've been through this before.
 
So, how do you determine which "people" you 'personally' choose to label as having been "propagandized by the Government and media"?
People who accept what government says without question. Did I have to explain that?
 
People who accept what government says without question. Did I have to explain that?
Does this phenomenon only affect people of a certain political lean, or no political lean, or is the phenomenon universal across people of all political/no political lean(s)?
 
Does this phenomenon only affect people of a certain political lean, or no political lean, or is the phenomenon universal across people of all political/no political lean(s)?
I made no exceptions. Feel free to make your own. I'm not a partisan.
 
Banks do no create money. Federal government creates money. We've been through this before.
What you call inflation is the CPI. You ignore government devaluation of the currency. It is very real and has been happening since the Coolidge administration. By the way federal government was clear of debt during the Jackson administration. Government stopped spending money it didn't have.

Do you see the contradiction in your positions here?

Yes, Andrew Jackson eliminated the national debt. He also killed the central bank and led us into a horrible Depression. He was an idiot.

Finally, you can't separate your definition of inflation (more money) and devaluation from CPI. If CPI doesn't increase, your definition of "devaluation" has zero meaning, since the dollars aren't really "devalued" at all. Plus, you basically conclude that all other causes of CPI are nonexistent if increasing the money supply is the cause of CPI. Those positions are hard to justify using data.
 
Do you see the contradiction in your positions here?

Yes, Andrew Jackson eliminated the national debt. He also killed the central bank and led us into a horrible Depression. He was an idiot.

Finally, you can't separate your definition of inflation (more money) and devaluation from CPI. If CPI doesn't increase, your definition of "devaluation" has zero meaning, since the dollars aren't really "devalued" at all. Plus, you basically conclude that all other causes of CPI are nonexistent if increasing the money supply is the cause of CPI. Those positions are hard to justify using data.
You will need to say something that at least meets the test of common sense if you are going to drag me into your rabbit hole. I wish we would kill the central bank right now. It would be worth a depression.
 
You will need to say something that at least meets the test of common sense if you are going to drag me into your rabbit hole. I wish we would kill the central bank right now. It would be worth a depression.

Everything @JohnfrmClevelan is saying is correct, and killing the central bank would cause far more than a depression. Something like 66 nations, or more, have their currency pegged to the US dollar with 11 other nations officially using the US dollar as their own currency.

Your asinine suggestion would cause a global economic and financial fault taking generations to crawl out of.
 
Everything @JohnfrmClevelan is saying is correct, and killing the central bank would cause far more than a depression. Something like 66 nations, or more, have their currency pegged to the US dollar with 11 other nations officially using the US dollar as their own currency.

Your asinine suggestion would cause a global economic and financial fault taking generations to crawl out of.
I disagree with everything John says. So it is fair to say I disagree with you as well.
 
I disagree with everything John says. So it is fair to say I disagree with you as well.

All we ask is a well formed argument based on economic principles and/or empirical data.

Do you have any of that to, combat anything, that @JohnfrmClevelan has said in this thread?
 
All we ask is a well formed argument based on economic principles and/or empirical data.

Do you have any of that to, combat anything, that @JohnfrmClevelan has said in this thread?
I've responded to many of his posts. You guys have a tiny minority version of economics belief. It isn't even worth talking about. You talk about accounting instead of wealth and value. It is frankly ridiculous. Sorry. Request denied.
 
I've responded to many of his posts. You guys have a tiny minority version of economics belief. It isn't even worth talking about. You talk about accounting instead of wealth and value. It is frankly ridiculous. Sorry. Request denied.

Then there is no reason to take you seriously, degrading to trolling status for refusing to offer much to support your assertions.
 
I disagree. I think most people value business. After all it is the source of everyone's wealth. What people call greed is simply the profit motive. Profit is a necessity to keep a business alive. Profit is regulated in the economy by competition, the single thing that makes capitalism work for people.

When the U.S. was founded it was a union of states and each of those states had 12 competitors. We now have a centralized government with no competition. The problem is government, not the private sector. Government and media have propagandized the people. I think this is true of Canada as well.
I agree profit is to a business what blood is to a human body. a business dies without a profit flow no different than a human body dies without blood flow.

I do think some people have been brought up to see any profit making activity as evil and are not aware that profit recirculates to pay salaries which is a social transaction or benefit to society not to mention the no.1 source of charity funds comes from businesses. All that aside FMW the question of whether government in all our Western "free enterprise" economies is too centralized and too intrusive I leave to you and our print more money advocate. Lol.

I will say this. We can now vividly see the same governments who engaged in big time spending during Covid 19 are now all engaging in yanking up interest rates to address hyperinflation and now we hear this may trigger a recession.

I think its all about the pendulum that swings back and forth between too much and too little government intervention in mixed economies where of course both approaches are used. That is as far as I go except to say being a proponent of mixed economy I think you need both and need to find a balance.

I will make this one sort of subjective comment. In Canada and of course we have a much smaller market place and population, we regulate through our federal government our 5 banks in a way where in the US the federal government did not.

I think it is fair to say a lack of regulations as to banking activities caused a banking collapse in the US that would also have happened in Canada had we not had in place certain regulations or restrictions on bank activities. In our case we didn't see a collapse in mortgage financing as in the US with so many fly by night banks. That said we have similar issues when we both had governments spend like crazy during Covid 19 and now have to deal with hyperinflation as a result.

We also face the same issues with renewable energy, non renewable energy, ever changing technology doing away with manual jobs which have been shifted overseas, worry about subsidizing domestic business unable to compete with foreign business as a result of free trade. In Canada we feel the US for a country that frowns upon government intervention has been the first to use it to subsidize US industry interests to prevent free trade and we point to Trump and Biden e
 
I will say this. We can now vividly see the same governments who engaged in big time spending during Covid 19 are now all engaging in yanking up interest rates to address hyperinflation and now we hear this may trigger a recession.

Just to keep things in perspective, the accepted definition of hyperinflation is 50% monthly, for a yearly rate of 12875%.

Also, interest rates don't actually fight inflation, they merely damage the economy (by design) in the hopes of killing demand. A dumb policy if there ever was one.

 
I agree profit is to a business what blood is to a human body. a business dies without a profit flow no different than a human body dies without blood flow.

I do think some people have been brought up to see any profit making activity as evil and are not aware that profit recirculates to pay salaries which is a social transaction or benefit to society not to mention the no.1 source of charity funds comes from businesses. All that aside FMW the question of whether government in all our Western "free enterprise" economies is too centralized and too intrusive I leave to you and our print more money advocate. Lol.

I will say this. We can now vividly see the same governments who engaged in big time spending during Covid 19 are now all engaging in yanking up interest rates to address hyperinflation and now we hear this may trigger a recession.

I think its all about the pendulum that swings back and forth between too much and too little government intervention in mixed economies where of course both approaches are used. That is as far as I go except to say being a proponent of mixed economy I think you need both and need to find a balance.

I will make this one sort of subjective comment. In Canada and of course we have a much smaller market place and population, we regulate through our federal government our 5 banks in a way where in the US the federal government did not.

I think it is fair to say a lack of regulations as to banking activities caused a banking collapse in the US that would also have happened in Canada had we not had in place certain regulations or restrictions on bank activities. In our case we didn't see a collapse in mortgage financing as in the US with so many fly by night banks. That said we have similar issues when we both had governments spend like crazy during Covid 19 and now have to deal with hyperinflation as a result.

We also face the same issues with renewable energy, non renewable energy, ever changing technology doing away with manual jobs which have been shifted overseas, worry about subsidizing domestic business unable to compete with foreign business as a result of free trade. In Canada we feel the US for a country that frowns upon government intervention has been the first to use it to subsidize US industry interests to prevent free trade and we point to Trump and Biden e
Change is inevitable. Only the adaptable survive. I always come back to the same issue and that is that it is illogical to include prices in the term inflation. Inflation is the inflation of the money supply. We don't deal with it in the same way that we deal with prices and yet government seems to think we do. Temporary price changes result from supply and demand and correct themselves over time. If government were to stay out of it, the pain would be more short lived. Instead government wants a quick reduction in prices and is willing to pay for it with an economic slowdown. We are in a recession at the moment and have what appears to be a bear stock market. Yet government wants to make it worse. I'm thankful government doesn't run the private sector.
 
The thread starter is trying in a really half assed way if I say so, to try present the views of Stephanie Kelton who wrote a book called the Deficit Myth.

Shelton's basic contention is that standard accounting principles are incorrect in stating it actually costs something when the government spends money.

Her theories are pretty much the ones of Bernie Saunders and those who see no true harm in raising deficits.

For brevity's sake:

The essence of her theory is he federal government shouldn’t try to manage its budget worrying about reducing the deficit. She does not buy into references that suggest the government needs to reduce the deficit and engage in fiscal restraint. .

She contends that the US Government can create unlimited amounts of money and so debt and deficits do not matter.

In Canada where I came from her policies we called SOCIAL CREDIT. We had political parties in British Columbia, Alberta and Quebec try engage in it, and they were a bloody disaster.

In fact and I think this is what the thread starter has tried to refer to and completely phacked up on is that it is true the central banks of our Western democracies follow her policy in the sense they print more money without concern for the deficit a to cover the expenditures. The fact they do this is creating a debt we can not pay back. You can go onto the internet of course and go to the calculator that shows you the interest rate running on the debt the US, Canada, other countries owe.

Its bloody scary. To simply say you can keep doing that and there will be no negative consequence is like a fat man who does not exercise, smokes, drinks. eats nothing but butter and bacon. Eventually something is going to happen. When and what I can not tell you but the economic markets as we know them are generating inflation at the moment and more and more of us are losing value in what our currencies spend to the point where the West may find itself redoing currencies and having bank collapses like third world countries and then money will cease to have any meaning which is why you see people now simply using credit cards, bit coin or thinking they can find other ways to get what they need.

It could very well be our economies collapse meaning we have to barter if this theory keeps being followed by our central banks,

In any event it is an extremely complex and no mainstream economist supports her theories even though our central banks which are as the thread starter said our true government and pretty much aare printing money to postpone debt.

Here is a classic rebuttal of her theories:

https://www.nationalreview.com/2020/06/what-the-deficit-myth-lacks/

I am not here to debate her theories. My sole purpose was to rebut over simplified nonsensical comments about economy.

Now to the person I have directed my comments at, I apologize if I sound rude. I genuinely do. I am simply a grump old bastard who does not mean to insult you personally just the concepts. I could have done a better job of distancing the comments to the words not you as a person. I actually took what you wrote seriously otherwise I would not spend so much time responding to you.

I just myself am what you would call a typical middle of the road tax payer. I understand why I pay taxes and need a government. I also do not like my government to waste money and spend money it has NOT taken in.

Like most people I believe we need economic regulations but how much is the question.
Who do we owe this debt to?
 
I agree profit is to a business what blood is to a human body. a business dies without a profit flow no different than a human body dies without blood flow.

I do think some people have been brought up to see any profit making activity as evil and are not aware that profit recirculates to pay salaries which is a social transaction or benefit to society not to mention the no.1 source of charity funds comes from businesses. All that aside FMW the question of whether government in all our Western "free enterprise" economies is too centralized and too intrusive I leave to you and our print more money advocate. Lol.

I will say this. We can now vividly see the same governments who engaged in big time spending during Covid 19 are now all engaging in yanking up interest rates to address hyperinflation and now we hear this may trigger a recession.

I think its all about the pendulum that swings back and forth between too much and too little government intervention in mixed economies where of course both approaches are used. That is as far as I go except to say being a proponent of mixed economy I think you need both and need to find a balance.

I will make this one sort of subjective comment. In Canada and of course we have a much smaller market place and population, we regulate through our federal government our 5 banks in a way where in the US the federal government did not.

I think it is fair to say a lack of regulations as to banking activities caused a banking collapse in the US that would also have happened in Canada had we not had in place certain regulations or restrictions on bank activities. In our case we didn't see a collapse in mortgage financing as in the US with so many fly by night banks. That said we have similar issues when we both had governments spend like crazy during Covid 19 and now have to deal with hyperinflation as a result.

We also face the same issues with renewable energy, non renewable energy, ever changing technology doing away with manual jobs which have been shifted overseas, worry about subsidizing domestic business unable to compete with foreign business as a result of free trade. In Canada we feel the US for a country that frowns upon government intervention has been the first to use it to subsidize US industry interests to prevent free trade and we point to Trump and Biden e

Not a whole lot of people view profit in and of itself as evil, just that the profit motive incentivizes a lot of bad behavior that needs to be regulated and the shift in economic power back to the very top and shareholders over workers who actually make the products has been shifted in the extreme to where there is a motto of maximizing shareholder value above all else even to the detriment of those who put in the labor investment into the product.

Profits dont necessarily recirculate as we see much of it going to stock buybacks instead of remuneration towards a much more efficient work force. Those are the consequences of the death of labor unions.

I think its more of a recognition that neoliberalism has failed.

I appreciate your stance towards mixed economies.
 
Obviously they aren't too concerned with tax receipts.


Can you support this with data? 2008 is the best argument that the number of dollars doesn't affect valuation.

Also, deficit spending doesn't create money, it creates bonds. Treasury issues bonds, private sector buys those bonds, and the proceeds are spent right back into the economy. More bonds, more demand, but same number of dollars. The central bank tinkers with MB as they see fit. M1 is largely out of their control, unless you believe interest rate changes matter much.


ANY kind of taxation is going to be political.
My God an educated person.
 
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