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You can’t be a good Christian and a good Democrat

nota bene

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I'm not doubting you can. Many seem to. I was using it as an example to the OP regarding how there are many denominations of Christians, and that not all of them are as strict in their beliefs as say, the Roman Catholics are. If you are a strict Catholic, I don't see how you can hold Democratic views as well.

I'd think that depends on the issue. I do know practicing Catholics who are both for and against the death penalty, for example.
 

<alt>doxygen

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I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”

I'm an outsider on both counts - I've never belonged to a political party or been truly involved in organized religion, so maybe this should be taken with a grain of salt:

I think you have it backwards. The "religious right" has become somewhat emblematic of Christianity in the USA. If you look at any type of media, that faction is dominant. They have been integrating themselves into the Republican party since at least 1980, demanding and getting planks in the Republican party platform hostile to gays and opposing abortion.

I moved to a pretty red area a couple of years ago. I used to listen to Christian and right wing talk shows a good bit when I was in the car. They rule a lot of the airwaves here. I was astonished when, last summer, one by one they started pumping Trump for president. Let's be real. Trump is no Christian. He can't even convincingly pay Christianity lip service:
At Thursday night's annual Christmas tree lighting at the White House, the president recounted the birth of Jesus by saying it "begins 2,000 years ago with a mother, a father, their baby son."

Their baby? Um, care to take a paternity test?

As all devout Christians believe, Jesus is not the son of Joseph, but of God. Yes, the future savior was born in Bethlehem during the time of Herod to Mary, the wife of Joseph. And, as Luke 2:1-20 tells us, Joseph was around when Jesus was born.

But he is not the father. He with a capital H is.

Some devout Christians were outraged, calling Trump a heretic for denying the virgin birth.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/oh-god-donald-trump-doesn-142821578.html

The religious right just doesn't care. This is about power.

Here are a couple of quotes from fundamentalist Christian radio personalities. I don't have the names of the people who made these statements or links, but they sure stuck in my head:
"Sometimes God uses bad people to do good things."

"If you would vote for a Democrat, I'm sorry, but I would have to question your salvation."

It seems to me that at least this powerful, vocal subset of Christianity is openly hostile to Democrats, as well as gays and basically anyone who doesn't toe their lines.
 

ataraxia

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I'd think that depends on the issue. I do know practicing Catholics who are both for and against the death penalty, for example.

Most of the Catholics I know hate the current pope.
 

AGENT J

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And in some cases I agree with you. In others I don't. Just my opinion and how I view it.

not sure what you mean but its just my opinion that its only nutters
 

Saboteur

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I don’t care one bit about Roy Moore or the people of Alabama. I fail to see how this has any relevance to the topic.

It's going to be hard to be a good Christian and a good Conservative/Republican that's what I mean.
 

blackjack50

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It's going to be hard to be a good Christian and a good Conservative/Republican that's what I mean.

Like I said in the first post (that I’m guessing you ignored)...that isn’t an issue in the Republican Party as the republicans have not been in a position to be anti Christian that has created an environment of hostility towards Christians. If you were to say...Muslims? You would have a point. But you didn’t. As for Roy Moore? Who cares. I have no dog in the fight. I abstained from trump and I’m not from Alabama. Not my circus. Not my monkies.
 

blackjack50

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I'm an outsider on both counts - I've never belonged to a political party or been truly involved in organized religion, so maybe this should be taken with a grain of salt:

I think you have it backwards. The "religious right" has become somewhat emblematic of Christianity in the USA. If you look at any type of media, that faction is dominant. They have been integrating themselves into the Republican party since at least 1980, demanding and getting planks in the Republican party platform hostile to gays and opposing abortion.

I moved to a pretty red area a couple of years ago. I used to listen to Christian and right wing talk shows a good bit when I was in the car. They rule a lot of the airwaves here. I was astonished when, last summer, one by one they started pumping Trump for president. Let's be real. Trump is no Christian. He can't even convincingly pay Christianity lip service:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/oh-god-donald-trump-doesn-142821578.html

The religious right just doesn't care. This is about power.

Here are a couple of quotes from fundamentalist Christian radio personalities. I don't have the names of the people who made these statements or links, but they sure stuck in my head:
"Sometimes God uses bad people to do good things."

"If you would vote for a Democrat, I'm sorry, but I would have to question your salvation."

It seems to me that at least this powerful, vocal subset of Christianity is openly hostile to Democrats, as well as gays and basically anyone who doesn't toe their lines.

Maybe my position will give you some insight. The “Christian Right” has lost. Specifically the anti gay movement. It is a dead issue now. And I suppose there is abortion...but then it is settled law and you don’t have to be Christian to oppose it (girlfriend does not define herself as Christian and is a democrat and does oppose abortion in most cases...especially as a form of birth control).

So knowing that...I see that the “Christian right” should no longer be a concern to democrats who look down their nose at me for being a Christian (because it means I must be a bible thumpings and snake charming hate monger from the hills Appilachia
 

holbritter

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I'd think that depends on the issue. I do know practicing Catholics who are both for and against the death penalty, for example.

I'm sorry, I don't see it that way. I'm not saying it's wrong or right, or even that I can decide that. I feel that you cannot cherry pick what goes against your religion. Either you follow it or you don't. Maybe it's because of my own experience, but that is my thinking on it. :)
 

D_NATURED

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I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”

If it seems there is an inconsistency between the goals of the progressive left and Christianity, you're right-wing, not just right. The left is much more open to the idea that the ways of the past might be, not just profoundly inadequate for OUR time, but wrong the whole time . Progress is about accepting change, after all, and conservative religious types are resistant to it, on its face. After all, you can't declare that a perfect god created a perfect way for people to live and then decide to change anything about it without declaring Him to be wrong.

Where we get into trouble is that conservatives feel entitled by that "perfect" idea, which is ironically interpreted in hundreds of different ways, as an excuse NOT to change or, worse, to defend things that are objectively wrong. Once you declare magic to be real, there is no limit on where such a deliberate credulity can be applied. Their ceaseless fight against gay marriage is but one example. Conservatives have chosen dogmas to define them on politics, economics and every other aspect of their lives.

So, the divide between the conservative and liberal sides can be defined much more clearly by the desire for a magical worldview, rather than simply to make it between Christianity and faithlessness. The Muslims and fundamentalist Catholics and Jews are also very conservative so to be a good Muslim, Catholic or Jew you can't be a democrat either. The problem is, you can't be a good religious fanatic and be a good, moral human being. There lies the rub.

I'd rather have moral integrity here on Earth than have to sacrifice my moral sense for a fake eternity with god.
 

<alt>doxygen

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Maybe my position will give you some insight. The “Christian Right” has lost. Specifically the anti gay movement. It is a dead issue now. And I suppose there is abortion...but then it is settled law and you don’t have to be Christian to oppose it (girlfriend does not define herself as Christian and is a democrat and does oppose abortion in most cases...especially as a form of birth control).

So knowing that...I see that the “Christian right” should no longer be a concern to democrats who look down their nose at me for being a Christian (because it means I must be a bible thumpings and snake charming hate monger from the hills Appilachia

I'm not a Democrat, so I can't speak for them, but the religious/Christian right is a concern to myself and many people. Probably mostly on the left or the libertarian parts of the right.

I'm fine with anyone's religion as long as they are willing to live as a part of a larger society that is made up of many different religions, as well as people who aren't religious. What bothers me is when they try to push their religious dictates into law, and in doing so infringe on the rights of others. For me, that holds equally for any religion as well as atheism.

The religious right had been losing the culture wars overall, but lately they've also gotten some victories. Hobby Lobby is an example. (I don't personally have a problem with that basic decision - I have a problem with how broadly it was written.) With Gorsuch on the court, there will probably be more regressive movement. Kim Davis thought she could use her religion as a template for defining what her job is.

Another example : when I lived in VA, they tried twice to pass one of those "personhood" bills the religious right likes so much. That's an end-around attack on abortion and as written it would have made miscarriage potential infanticide. Apparently they couldn't reword it in a way that got rid of that problem while also accomplishing the goal of legislating that a fertilized egg is a "person". My personal views on abortion seem to match those of your girlfriend.

I'm sure there are Democrats who simply look down on religion. There are certainly Republicans who do as well, but if the religion in question will help you push their agenda why would they say anything?

Refer to OlNate's post - the crazies of the religious right make a ton of noise and have a lot of money. I wish the sane ones would shout them down.

I know this sounds like when people call out Muslims for not being more vocal about the extremists among them. If you don't want crazies representing you to the world, step forward and be noticed.
 

CrabCake

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I don’t like making statements like this, but sadly I believe this is true now. And before we get into it...I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT MORAL VIEWS OR ETHICS AND I’M NOT SAYING DEMOCRATS CANNOT BE CHRISTIAN.

There. Now that’s that is out of the way. I think there has been a shift in the Democrat Party. And I think it has come even within the past 10 years or so. And it kinda disturbs me. It disturbs me because the people who should care...don’t. They don’t even see it. In fact...they are so wrapped up in their politics that they don’t even recognize that they are doing it. And the reverse is not true in this case. You will not find this sentiment in the republican camp. So what am I saying specifically?

I think that modern democrats have so aligned themselves that many democrats do not believe they can reconcile their faith with their politics. To the point that it seems many democrats feel that being a Christian automatically means you can’t be a real democrat. It even means you are a republican and hold certain views that they find repugnant. And what has this lead to? An openly hostile atmosphere FROM the left against those who have faith. And now. It isn’t “all democrats,” but I feel more open hostility and discomfort if I’m in an open discussion and I mention I’m a Christian. You would think the party of “tolerance” would understand how wrong this is, but it seems to have gone over their head. Completely. You even have some who openly insult people just for having faith.

I personally think this has to do with the LGBT movement of course. That is a given. And many democrats failed to see that this divide...was even in churches. It didn’t just stop at the door. Personally? I’m ok with gay marriage. And gays. I don’t care. Doesn’t bother me. But because there was opposition and the right took up the stance and then the democrats hijacked the movement (once the objective was completed) and now we have the left attacking their enemy the “Christian right.” And it isn’t just about gay marriage now. Does anyone else feel the left has become openly hostile towards Christians (and to some extent Jews or other religions)? If not openly hostile...would you be willing to see more intolerant? That the Democrat Party has decided their views cannot coexist with a “good Christian” or a “good Jew” or a “good Muslim?”

Seeing as most Democrats (about 65%) consider themselves Christian, I think you're mistaken.
 

ecofarm

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Easy way to avoid the discussion. I guess you aren’t a Christian in a liberal town then. I could see why you would ha zero understanding on the topic. You might also be one of the democrats I mentioned too. :/

Not a Dem. Safe space ---->
 

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I don’t care one bit about Roy Moore or the people of Alabama. I fail to see how this has any relevance to the topic.

I think that is the precise point. Let's rephrase it in a manner that fits your OP. "You can't disagree with me political and be a good <insert religion of choice here>". That is exactly what the op is doing.
 

RAMOSS

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Then the question is, can you be a Democratic and disagree with some of their most pushed agendas? Such as abortion, gay rights, etc.

Why yes, yes you can. "Purity" is somethign that is only demanded by utter fanatics.
 

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After reading thru the thread and some of the comments, my first thought is -- Just who is seen as a Christian by blackjack? There are some strains of the religion which claim that the only "true Christians" are those who believe in the manner prescribed by their church.
 

blackjack50

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After reading thru the thread and some of the comments, my first thought is -- Just who is seen as a Christian by blackjack? There are some strains of the religion which claim that the only "true Christians" are those who believe in the manner prescribed by their church.

I disagree with those people. It isn’t up to me to say who is and isn’t Christian. I can have my opinion on if something is or is not Christian behavior (gay bashing is unchristian to me and preaching hate too). But I’m not the one who makes the call. Forgive me for getting Presbyterian on you. But it is only by the Grace of God that we are saved. Not Your or my actions that make us Christian or saved. So I don’t really have a view on who is and isn’t Christian. Not my circus. Not my monkey.

But my view in this particular thread being expressed is that there are democrats out there that seem to believe that being a liberal and being a Christian are mutually exclusive. And I don’t understand the mentality. :/
 

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I disagree with those people. It isn’t up to me to say who is and isn’t Christian. I can have my opinion on if something is or is not Christian behavior (gay bashing is unchristian to me and preaching hate too). But I’m not the one who makes the call. Forgive me for getting Presbyterian on you. But it is only by the Grace of God that we are saved. Not Your or my actions that make us Christian or saved. So I don’t really have a view on who is and isn’t Christian. Not my circus. Not my monkey.

But my view in this particular thread being expressed is that there are democrats out there that seem to believe that being a liberal and being a Christian are mutually exclusive. And I don’t understand the mentality. :/

. . . and I don't understand where you are getting this concept. As a non-believer and a Democrat, I am the only one in my circle of friends and family who is a non-believer. I live on an island with a population of about 350, and that includes the kids. Our town voted 77% for Hillary Clinton. The only person I know who might be a non-believer, I've never asked but there have been hints, voted for Trump.
 

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But my view in this particular thread being expressed is that there are democrats out there that seem to believe that being a liberal and being a Christian are mutually exclusive. And I don’t understand the mentality.

Because there is no "mentality" like that.

The vast majority of democrats/liberals are in fact, wait for it, ..................... christians.
 

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The idea that one can be good or bad at believing in a subjective deity is a humorous concept. The notion that what makes a person good at being a christian is their ability to reject liberal values is interesting given the fact that the Jesus character was a liberal who theoretically changed the religious dynamic of his time.

The irony is that modern religious fanatics who happen to identify as christian are no more motivated to see their fairh evolve as the Pharacees of Jesus' time were. Thus, if Jesus was to be an example to his followers and not just a graven image to worship blindly, his modern followers have missed the mark by a mile.
 

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I do not see how a good Christian can support tax cuts for the rich. That is all Republican politicians really care about.

Jesus condemned rich people. The Epistle of St. James reads like a socialist tract. Old Testament prophets condemned rich Israelites for oppressing poor Israelites.
 

it's just me

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I do not see how a good Christian can support tax cuts for the rich. That is all Republican politicians really care about.

Jesus condemned rich people. The Epistle of St. James reads like a socialist tract. Old Testament prophets condemned rich Israelites for oppressing poor Israelites.

A good Christian worries about his own life and doesn't judge others, which is another reason why Democrats can't be good Christians, because Democrats are constantly fretting about other people's money, or religion, or cars, or...
 

nota bene

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A good Christian worries about his own life and doesn't judge others, which is another reason why Democrats can't be good Christians, because Democrats are constantly fretting about other people's money, or religion, or cars, or...

Well, I was with you until "which is another reason why Democrats can't be good Christians...."
 
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