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Yet another retired general believes Rumsfeld should go (1 Viewer)

aps

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This is the 3rd retired general who thinks Rumsfeld should be fired or replaced. But as usual, the president claims that he is happy with the job that Rumsfeld is doing. Of course that is the case. He (Bush) knows that if someone else were put in charge, he would be getting an earful about the horrible job this administration has done in its planning.

Third Retired General Wants Rumsfeld Out

By THOM SHANKER
Published: April 10, 2006

WASHINGTON, April 9 — The three-star Marine Corps general who was the military's top operations officer before the invasion of Iraq expressed regret, in an essay published Sunday, that he did not more energetically question those who had ordered the nation to war. . .

Lt. Gen. Gregory Newbold, who retired in late 2002, also called for replacing Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and "many others unwilling to fundamentally change their approach." He is the third retired senior officer in recent weeks to demand that Mr. Rumsfeld step down.

In the essay, in this week's issue of Time magazine, General Newbold wrote, "I now regret that I did not more openly challenge those who were determined to invade a country whose actions were peripheral to the real threat — Al Qaeda."

The decision to invade Iraq, he wrote, "was done with a casualness and swagger that are the special province of those who have never had to execute these missions — or bury the results." . . .

A leader's responsibility "is to give voice to those who can't — or don't have the opportunity to — speak," General Newbold wrote. "Enlisted members of the armed forces swear their oath to those appointed over them; an officer swears an oath not to a person but to the Constitution. The distinction is important."

General Newbold served as director of operations of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 2000 through the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks and the war in Afghanistan. He left military service in late 2002, as the Defense Department was deep into planning for the March 2003 invasion of Iraq.

"I retired from the military four months before the invasion, in part because of my opposition to those who had used 9/11's tragedy to hijack our security policy," General Newbold wrote.

His generation of officers thought it had learned from Vietnam that "we must never again stand by quietly while those ignorant of and casual about war lead us into another one and then mismanage the conduct of it," General Newbold wrote. . . .

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/10/world/middleeast/10military.html

It's actually a good thing that Bush is keeping Rumsfeld on, as this will keep Bush's disapproval up. Did people see Rumsfeld essentially belittle what Condoleezza Rice said about having made thousands of tactical errors? Who does Rumsfeld think he is fooling? I mean, really. :roll:
 
aps said:
Who does Rumsfeld think he is fooling? I mean, really. :roll:


I agree. We should have used the Powell doctrine of massive overwhelming force instead of the Rumsfeld doctrine of " Just enough to do the job."
 
Actually, Tommy Franks put together the plan for this war.

Don Rumsfeld had nothing to do with the size of the force we used.

read "American Soldier" if you want to learn some facts about the Iraq war, rather than the crap the mainstream media is feeding all of us.
 
C'mon now! Brown....er......Rummy's doing a "heck-of-a job." :rofl
 
ProudAmerican said:
Actually, Tommy Franks put together the plan for this war.

Don Rumsfeld had nothing to do with the size of the force we used.

read "American Soldier" if you want to learn some facts about the Iraq war, rather than the crap the mainstream media is feeding all of us.

Tommy Franks did it by himself? With no help from others? It sounds like this general was part of the planning phase.

Don Rumsfeld is the Secretary of Defense. He had nothing to do with the size of the force we used? Sorry, but a book written by Tommy Franks won't give me the mainstream information I would want.
 
I've never understood the logic of 50 people saying "A", 10 people saying B", then starting a thread with the understanding that the 10 people MUST be right...:confused:

When was the last time ANY decision was made in the Government with unanimity?...Of course there will always be someone who dissents...

Pointing that out does what?....
 
cnredd said:
I've never understood the logic of 50 people saying "A", 10 people saying B", then starting a thread with the understanding that the 10 people MUST be right...:confused:

When was the last time ANY decision was made in the Government with unanimity?...Of course there will always be someone who dissents...

Pointing that out does what?....

Like the old saying redd, "Everybody was out of step but Johnny."

Often, I think the same thing when I see that 30 plus percent of the nation supports Bush and over 60 plus percent do not. Then the 30+ tells us 60+ what idiots we are. :rofl
 
Captain America said:
Like the old saying redd, "Everybody was out of step but Johnny."

Often, I think the same thing when I see that 30 plus percent of the nation supports Bush and over 60 plus percent do not. Then the 30+ tells us 60+ what idiots we are. :rofl
I would agree IF the voters were all informed and based their votes purely on issues instead of partisanship and other superficial things...Of course we know that's not the case...

I think some people are under some sort of impression that GWB went up to 100 generals and asked if we should invade, they all said "No", then he said, "Well I'm gonna do it anyway."...

That's BS...

I just don't understand this logic...

General A - "Yes"
General B - "Yes"
General C - "Yes"
General D - "Yes"
General E - "Yes"
General F - "Yes"
General G - "Yes"
General H - "No"

Then someone starts a thread..."Hey everybody!!!!...General H said `No'!"...

Boggles the mind...:confused:
 
aps said:
Tommy Franks did it by himself? With no help from others? It sounds like this general was part of the planning phase.

Don Rumsfeld is the Secretary of Defense. He had nothing to do with the size of the force we used? Sorry, but a book written by Tommy Franks won't give me the mainstream information I would want.


Tommy Franks, along with MILITARY PLANNERS under his command, planned and executed this war.

a book written by the man that was ONE HUNDRED PERCENT IN CHARGE OF THE OPERATION isnt enough for you?

Of course Franks plan had to be approved by the president....but I can tell you, from what I have read, neither he, nor Rumsfeld had any cignificant input on the planning of the operation.

I would greatly appreciate any military minds giving their input here as I am certainly no expert. I only know what I read.

as a matter of fact, Franks specifically states in the book that HE DID NOT WANT THE SIZE OF THE FORCE USED IN THE GULF WAR in this operation.

I will be glad to look up the chapter and page if you like.
 
ProudAmerican said:
Tommy Franks, along with MILITARY PLANNERS under his command, planned and executed this war.

a book written by the man that was ONE HUNDRED PERCENT IN CHARGE OF THE OPERATION isnt enough for you?

Of course Franks plan had to be approved by the president....but I can tell you, from what I have read, neither he, nor Rumsfeld had any cignificant input on the planning of the operation.

I would greatly appreciate any military minds giving their input here as I am certainly no expert. I only know what I read.

as a matter of fact, Franks specifically states in the book that HE DID NOT WANT THE SIZE OF THE FORCE USED IN THE GULF WAR in this operation.

I will be glad to look up the chapter and page if you like.

Ya quote it please.
I would like to know why overwhelming force was not utilized.
I can see the advantages of a small fast moving initial force but flooding for securities sake afterwards seems like a good tactic.
 
akyron said:
Ya quote it please.
I would like to know why overwhelming force was not utilized.
I can see the advantages of a small fast moving initial force but flooding for securities sake afterwards seems like a good tactic.

its a 600 page book and I didnt mark the page, so it will take some time, but I will try to find it.

and overwhelming force was used during major combat operations. we wiped out the actual army in short order.

its the ones that took off their uniforms and faded away into the population that we are now having so much trouble with.
 
I once had two different Lieutenants pat me on the back because I stood up to my commander, and the secret patting says it all. The time to speak up, through the chain of command, the time to be a citizen first, the time to put the career on the line, is not after retirement.

“In the essay, in this week's issue of Time magazine, General Newbold wrote, ‘I now regret that I did not more openly challenge those who were determined to invade a country whose actions were peripheral to the real threat — Al Qaeda.’"

Our civilian government makes the determination as to the treat, and we all do it with our votes, and protests, and we had a vote after the invasion that could have changed the mission drastically; the real threat in my opinion is the safe harbors, and Afghanistan was not the only one. So the General should have no more power in his challenge than any of us American citizens do. And nothing the General says can remove the words “Iraq” and “Iraqi” from the three facts in the February 23, 1998 fatwa of Al Quacka, nor can it do anything to remove the safe harbors of the magical “they” that Saddam said “should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings:”

“On the basis of what we said about Iraq while confronting aggressions, the world now needs to abort the US aggressive schemes, including its aggression on the Afghan people, which must stop.
Again we say that when someone feels that he is unjustly treated, and no one is repulsing or stopping the injustice inflicted on him, he personally seeks ways and means for lifting that justice. Of course, not everyone is capable of finding the best way for lifting the injustice inflicted on him. People resort to what they think is the best way according to their own ideas, and they are not all capable of reaching out for what is beyond what is available to arrive to the best idea or means.
To find the best way, after having found their way to God and His rights, those who are inflicted by injustice need not to be isolated from their natural milieu, or be ignored deliberately, or as a result of mis-appreciation, by the officials in this milieu. They should, rather, be reassured and helped to save themselves, and their surroundings.” (Saddam Hussein Shabban 13, 1422 H. October 29, 2001.)

“Many officers who served in Iraq also say privately that regardless of flawed war planning or early mistakes by civilian and military officers, the American public would hold the current officer corps responsible for failure in Iraq. These officers do not want to discuss doubts about the mission publicly now. General Newbold acknowledged these issues, saying he decided to go public only after ‘the encouragement of some still in positions of military leadership‘ and in order to ‘offer a challenge to those still in uniform.’"

I personally see no difference between General Newbold, and the weak-kneed officers he claims exist, and the Lieutenants that patted me on the back.

General Newbold felt the “Constitution” part of the oath important enough to mention, now let us take a look at what he said:

“A leader's responsibility ‘is to give voice to those who can't — or don't have the opportunity to — speak,’ General Newbold wrote. ‘Enlisted members of the armed forces swear their oath to those appointed over them; an officer swears an oath not to a person but to the Constitution. The distinction is important.’"

Really? I say Bull! I swore my enlistment oath in front of a picture of a president I hated, that I thought had killed a friend of mine with his “liberal“ crap, so I guess I had a reason to remember the oath better than General Newbold (After his commissioning as a second lieutenant in 1970 he attended The Basic School in Quantico, VA, where he was designated an infantry officer):

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
http://www.army.mil/cmh-pg/faq/oaths.htm

Now when did General Newbold take the oath that said “I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic?” What did they do, make him an officer without enlistment first?

Even John Kerry took that enlistment oath before becoming an officer and taking the officer‘s oath. Take my word for it, it is in his records.

We all could have voted for Dennis Kucinich and ended the mission in Iraq really quick!
 
Are you telling me that Franks wasn't given parameters to plan around? I am sure that he was told how many troops he could use and to plan according to that. the Bush admin. doesn't listen to dissent. They are so arrogant and cocksure that their fragile egos can't handle anything but yes men. They think that dissent is weakness and should be dismissed.

I think the Bush apologists aren't speaking loud or often enough. They should scream at the top of their lungs everywhere. If they do this it might save lives in the future. That way we don't make the same mistake anytime soon. I hope America doesn't forget about this debaucle. Thank you for being more loyal to your party than your country.
 
cnredd said:
I would agree IF the voters were all informed and based their votes purely on issues instead of partisanship and other superficial things...Of course we know that's not the case...

I think some people are under some sort of impression that GWB went up to 100 generals and asked if we should invade, they all said "No", then he said, "Well I'm gonna do it anyway."...

That's BS...

I just don't understand this logic...

General A - "Yes"
General B - "Yes"
General C - "Yes"
General D - "Yes"
General E - "Yes"
General F - "Yes"
General G - "Yes"
General H - "No"

Then someone starts a thread..."Hey everybody!!!!...General H said `No'!"...

Boggles the mind...:confused:

Especially when General H said quite the opposite before the war started

See


http://www.debatepolitics.com/war-iraq/10243-general-supports-don-rumsfeld.html
 

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