Yes, we were born in blood...

[Dittohead not!]

To be fair, in the case of the Neanderthals we're not exactly talking about the actions of an existing political entity. From what I gather, North America's eastern regions had been thoroughly settled by the British and French, and much of the south and west by the Spanish, before the United States became a nation; but that country which still exists today did participate in the tail end of the native American genocide in the westward expansion of the 19th century. It was Matchlight who brought up apologizing, but like I said no individual could be expected to apologize for deeds they hadn't done, and nor should any countries or institutions be expected to apologize for anything they had not done. Personally I don't know and scarcely care if the US has acknowledged or apologized on that front - mere words are only a first step in addressing some of the issues endemic to indigenous communities in both of our countries, after all - but as far as our little forum goes I reckon it's worth discussing as a matter of historical fact and not trivialized as "well others did it too!" or (even worse) by suggestions that the land was unoccupied/unowned.



Competition often produces great results, and sometimes even war - the harshest competition of all - leads to advances and long term benefits. But does that mean war is a good thing? Does it mean that genocide is a good thing?

History isn't black and white, and a handful of fringe lunatics aside no-one claims that America (or other colonial or post-colonial powers) is some kind of utterly evil empire; nor that indigenous populations were peaceful angels living in complete harmony with nature. But as evidenced by this very thread, some people are unwilling even to come to terms with the fact that invasion, conquest, direct mass killing and indirect consequences of these policies resulting in near-extermination of two continents' populations is in fact genocide.

There is no question that the European exploration and exploitation of the new world resulted in the deaths of a large percentage of the native Americans. The term "genocide" could certainly be applied to the demise of the natives.

But, history is what it is, and, as you said, requires no apology. The modern nations of North America would not exist had that "genocide" not taken place. The best we can do when it comes to history is study it objectively and learn from it.

Rousseau and his "noble savage" idea was debunked centuries ago, and yet, we still have people re writing history to lament the evil Europeans and their guns destroying an idyllic and peaceful people for financial gain. I think we can agree that is bunk.

Guns, germs, and steel wiped out a large percentage of the native Americans. The invaders had superior weapons and better resistance to diseases that they brought with them. The same scenario has been played out throughout human history, and just might be played out again. History repeats itself.

 

[Goshin]

They didn't need to change. They were living the glorious life that we threw away when we created agriculture, money, and assembly lines.

Yeah, they were living the dream all right. Leather moccasins that had to be patched or repaired after every day's walk... the leather having been softened in the first place by having his squaw chew on it for a couple days before sewing them. Fighting wars with other tribes over hunting grounds, torturing captives slowly to death or enslaving them or running the losers off to starve. Listening to stories around the campfire... every night... forever, since there's nothing better to do unless there's a captured enemy to torture.

Packing up everything useful and moving and rebuilding the village elsewhere every so often, because the old site became so nasty from your own waste and use that it was no longer fit to live in.

Dying in your twenties or thirties of a simple infection, or an abscess tooth, or childbirth, or pneumonia, or rabies, or tetanus, as many did. No morphine... no aspirin.


Watching the Medicine Man treat your daughter's epilepsy by beating her with a Juju Stick to drive out the evil spirits.


Living in constant fear of strangers, monsters, the Thunder God, the Fever Imps... huddled in a dirt floor hut half full of smoke because you never heard of chimneys...



Yup, those were the days... what fools we are to have given up all that for medicine, jet planes, space shuttles, computers, lifespans pushing a century, and roofs that don't leak.

 

[Moot]

Yes, it appears that they did.
The Europeans bred with the native Americans as well.

Apparently most white Europeans have Neanderthal DNA whereas most blacks in Africa don't.

There is no such thing as "pure" race.

 

[Dittohead not!]

Apparently most white Europeans have Neanderthal DNA whereas most blacks in Africa don't.

There is no such thing as "pure" race.

No, there's not such thing as a pure race, unless it's the human race. We're all 100% human. As for the blacks in Africa, their ancestors didn't meet up with the Neanderthals, so they didn't interbreed. Europeans and Asians, on the other hand do have some Neanderthal in their genome.

 

[Goshin]

No, there's not such thing as a pure race, unless it's the human race. We're all 100% human. As for the blacks in Africa, their ancestors didn't meet up with the Neanderthals, so they didn't interbreed. Europeans and Asians, on the other hand do have some Neanderthal in their genome.

Which apparently isn't such a bad thing...

 

[Moot]

No, there's not such thing as a pure race, unless it's the human race. We're all 100% human. As for the blacks in Africa, their ancestors didn't meet up with the Neanderthals, so they didn't interbreed. Europeans and Asians, on the other hand do have some Neanderthal in their genome.

We were just discussing that subject the other day on another thread. Apparently, humans also have fruit fly DNA. lol Heeeeelp meeeeeee.....


So humans aren't even a pure species. Hmmm, maybe centaurs weren't myths after all. lol

 

[Dittohead not!]

We were just discussing that subject the other day on another thread. Apparently, humans also have fruit fly DNA. lol Heeeeelp meeeeeee.....


So humans aren't even a pure species. Hmmm, maybe centaurs weren't myths after all. lol

That explains my urge to flit around the bowl of peaches no doubt.

 

[Mithrae]

Yup, those were the days... what fools we are to have given up all that for medicine, jet planes, space shuttles, computers, lifespans pushing a century, and roofs that don't leak.

It's probably only in the past century or less that the average person even in rich countries has really had a better life than many uncivilized tribes - and now hunting, fishing and gardening are stuff that we do for leisure :lol: As with pretty much anything else, civilization isn't all bad or all good; we've gained a lot, but lost a lot too. (Of course our advantage is that folk so inclined can always go back to living off the land and still keep many of the bonuses of civilization, as long as not too many people try to do so.) There's an interesting comparison between the two ways of life made by Benjamin Franklin in a letter from 1753:

The proneness of human Nature to a life of ease, of freedom from care and labour appears strongly in the little success that has hitherto attended every attempt to civilize our American Indians, in their present way of living, almost all their Wants are supplied by the spontaneous Productions of Nature, with the addition of very little labour, if hunting and fishing may indeed be called labour when Game is so plenty, they visit us frequently, and see the advantages that Arts, Sciences, and compact Society procure us, they are not deficient in natural understanding and yet they have never shewn any Inclination to change their manner of life for ours, or to learn any of our Arts; When an Indian Child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our Customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and make one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return, and that this is not natural [to them] merely as Indians, but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived a while among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them. One instance I remember to have heard, where the person was brought home to possess a good Estate; but finding some care necessary to keep it together, he relinquished it to a younger Brother, reserving to himself nothing but a gun and a match-Coat, with which he took his way again to the Wilderness.

Though they have few but natural wants and those easily supplied. But with us are infinite Artificial wants, no less craving than those of Nature, and much more difficult to satisfy; . . . .

The little value Indians set on what we prize so highly under the name of Learning appears from a pleasant passage that happened some years since at a Treaty between one of our Colonies and the Six Nations; when every thing had been settled to the Satisfaction of both sides, and nothing remained but a mutual exchange of civilities, the English Commissioners told the Indians, they had in their Country a College for the instruction of Youth who were there taught various languages, Arts, and Sciences; that there was a particular foundation in favour of the Indians to defray the expense of the Education of any of their sons who should desire to take the Benefit of it. And now if the Indians would accept of the Offer, the English would take half a dozen of their brightest lads and bring them up in the Best manner; The Indians after consulting on the proposal replied that it was remembered some of their Youths had formerly been educated in that College, but it had been observed that for a long time after they returned to their Friends, they were absolutely good for nothing being neither acquainted with the true methods of killing deer, catching Beaver or surprizing an enemy. The Proposition however, they looked on as a mark of the kindness and good will of the English to the Indian Nations which merited a grateful return; and therefore if the English Gentlemen would send a dozen or two of their Children to Onondago the great Council would take care of their Education, bring them up in really what was the best manner and make men of them.
​

 

[Goshin]

It's probably only in the past century or less that the average person even in rich countries has really had a better life than many uncivilized tribes - and now hunting, fishing and gardening are stuff that we do for leisure :lol: As with pretty much anything else, civilization isn't all bad or all good; we've gained a lot, but lost a lot too. (Of course our advantage is that folk so inclined can always go back to living off the land and still keep many of the bonuses of civilization, as long as not too many people try to do so.) There's an interesting comparison between the two ways of life made by Benjamin Franklin in a letter from 1753:

The proneness of human Nature to a life of ease, of freedom from care and labour appears strongly in the little success that has hitherto attended every attempt to civilize our American Indians, in their present way of living, almost all their Wants are supplied by the spontaneous Productions of Nature, with the addition of very little labour, if hunting and fishing may indeed be called labour when Game is so plenty, they visit us frequently, and see the advantages that Arts, Sciences, and compact Society procure us, they are not deficient in natural understanding and yet they have never shewn any Inclination to change their manner of life for ours, or to learn any of our Arts; When an Indian Child has been brought up among us, taught our language and habituated to our Customs, yet if he goes to see his relations and make one Indian Ramble with them, there is no perswading him ever to return, and that this is not natural [to them] merely as Indians, but as men, is plain from this, that when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and lived a while among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness to prevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the first good Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them. One instance I remember to have heard, where the person was brought home to possess a good Estate; but finding some care necessary to keep it together, he relinquished it to a younger Brother, reserving to himself nothing but a gun and a match-Coat, with which he took his way again to the Wilderness.

Though they have few but natural wants and those easily supplied. But with us are infinite Artificial wants, no less craving than those of Nature, and much more difficult to satisfy; . . . .

The little value Indians set on what we prize so highly under the name of Learning appears from a pleasant passage that happened some years since at a Treaty between one of our Colonies and the Six Nations; when every thing had been settled to the Satisfaction of both sides, and nothing remained but a mutual exchange of civilities, the English Commissioners told the Indians, they had in their Country a College for the instruction of Youth who were there taught various languages, Arts, and Sciences; that there was a particular foundation in favour of the Indians to defray the expense of the Education of any of their sons who should desire to take the Benefit of it. And now if the Indians would accept of the Offer, the English would take half a dozen of their brightest lads and bring them up in the Best manner; The Indians after consulting on the proposal replied that it was remembered some of their Youths had formerly been educated in that College, but it had been observed that for a long time after they returned to their Friends, they were absolutely good for nothing being neither acquainted with the true methods of killing deer, catching Beaver or surprizing an enemy. The Proposition however, they looked on as a mark of the kindness and good will of the English to the Indian Nations which merited a grateful return; and therefore if the English Gentlemen would send a dozen or two of their Children to Onondago the great Council would take care of their Education, bring them up in really what was the best manner and make men of them.
​

A good reply, and a good point made. It's true, the basic standard of living among the colonists was not really so much greater at that time, and they worked very hard indeed as well as having to concern themselves with social obligations which were hardly less essential to survival than food, since it was hard to live in those days without the good will of one's neighbors.

But that level of civilization was "midwife" to our own... and while our own time has its troubles, I prefer a human civilization that is reaching out towards the stars than one content with living in the dirt.