• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every persons position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Yearning to Breath Free

code1211

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
35,074
Reaction score
7,130
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
What has happened to our country?

We all have a vague understanding of the migration of our forbearers to this country. Those of us with roots in the Northern European countries sometimes can relate funny or terrifying stories about the entry into the country through Ellis Island or the desperation and the heart ache that led Great-Great-Grandpa to abandon his life and set out for America. In Ireland, half of my heritage, departing young men were sent off with what amounted to a funeral because they would never be seen again. "Danny Boy" is the result of these departures.

My father's Grandmother, was sent to the public school and was determined to learn English to become a real American. Her description. She was Swedish. She learned the language and was surprised to learn, also, that the new language taught in the German neighborhood of Minneapolis to which they had moved was German.

These are the kinds of stories that our immigrants, and they are our immigrants, should be able to tell. The only stories we hear now are of the immigrants who are lawless and fugitive and "living in the shadows". We can hope they also tell stories of warm and loving families, but forcing them to be in hiding is a damage to us all.

Why not, in our new era of glitzy and speed of light information processing, take a lesson from Ellis island. Why not create a border that funnels those that yearn to breath free to Ellis Island style processing centers and immunize them, document them and admit them? The immigrants who boarded boats to find freedom and opportunity were welcomed by the country even though, in turn, they were despised by those immigrants who were already here.

My immediate family was the product of second and third generation immigrants and the country didn't seem to suffer from their entry. Of course, the jury is still out on that one...

We've got plenty of room here. We know they are coming anyway. Why not do something that makes sense?


"Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
 
Last edited:

notquiteright

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
16,839
Reaction score
5,818
Location
okla-freakin-homa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Seems that yearning to be free has been replaced by yearning for a free ride.
Judging from those I have seen roofing, working concrete, and general construction I'd say it must take a few generations in this country to shift to wanna free ride mode...

Perhaps the motto is the immigrant dream is a better life for their kids, the American Dream is money for nothing and our chicks for free..... :)
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,700
Reaction score
5,703
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Judging from those I have seen roofing, working concrete, and general construction I'd say it must take a few generations in this country to shift to wanna free ride mode...

Perhaps the motto is the immigrant dream is a better life for their kids, the American Dream is money for nothing and our chicks for free..... :)
Those are the ones you see and those are the ones taking jobs from legal Americans. The ones you don't see are the ones on the free ride. If you immigrate here legally you should not be eligible for any social programs for a long period of time. If you are here illegally no way Jose.
 

notquiteright

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
16,839
Reaction score
5,818
Location
okla-freakin-homa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
Those are the ones you see and those are the ones taking jobs from legal Americans. The ones you don't see are the ones on the free ride. If you immigrate here legally you should not be eligible for any social programs for a long period of time. If you are here illegally no way Jose.
Ahhh so what I can see is a mirage and what I can't see is real.... :roll:

How are they taking jobs from legal citizens? What free ride do illegals get... and please not the vague claims... a few numbers to bolster the claims ... :peace
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,700
Reaction score
5,703
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
Ahhh so what I can see is a mirage and what I can't see is real.... :roll:

How are they taking jobs from legal citizens? What free ride do illegals get... and please not the vague claims... a few numbers to bolster the claims ... :peace
What you see is illegals taking jobs from Americans. What you don't see is...

"When workers and their families immigrate to the United States on a non-legal basis, they run the risk of deportation and prosecution. However, they may be able to receive certain government benefits without directly paying for these services. For instance, many public hospitals are legally obligated to provide healthcare to anyone who requests it. If a relatively poor immigrant can't pay for these services, the taxpayers who support the hospital must indirectly subsidize his or her care."

Law Dictionary: Why Do Illegal Immigrants Get Free Food Stamps and Health Insurance While Paying No Taxes? Why Do Illegal Immigrants Get Free Food Stamps and Health Insurance While Paying No Taxes?

EDIT: From the link you likely wont look at.

"Just because illegal aliens are not legally entitled to these benefits does not mean they do not apply for them. Yes. It is true that illegal aliens have received grants, professional accreditations, loans, WIC, disability, public housing, college educations, food stamps, unemployment benefits, and tax credits from state and federal agencies.

According to the U.S. Census Bureau, at least one third of foreign born citizens in the United States are illegal aliens. Since children born in the United States are considered U.S. Citizens, it becomes complicated when illegal aliens then bear children who are U.S. Citizens.

If the U.S. government sent the parents of these children away, we would be separating families. Now that these families have given birth to U.S. citizens, the families are eligible for benefits such as WIC and food stamps. Benefits such as these are for low income families. Illegal aliens often work in low paying jobs so they now qualify for benefits.


Law Dictionary: Why is it that Illegal Aliens Get Free Food Stamps, Health Insurance and Pay No Taxes? http://thelawdictionary.org/article...lth-insurance-and-pay-no-taxes/#ixzz2WxYThLyS
 
Last edited:

notquiteright

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
16,839
Reaction score
5,818
Location
okla-freakin-homa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
What you see is illegals taking jobs from Americans. What you don't see is...

"When workers and their families immigrate to the United States on a non-legal basis, they run the risk of deportation and prosecution. However, they may be able to receive certain government benefits without directly paying for these services. For instance, many public hospitals are legally obligated to provide healthcare to anyone who requests it. If a relatively poor immigrant can't pay for these services, the taxpayers who support the hospital must indirectly subsidize his or her care."

Law Dictionary: Why Do Illegal Immigrants Get Free Food Stamps and Health Insurance While Paying No Taxes? Why Do Illegal Immigrants Get Free Food Stamps and Health Insurance While Paying No Taxes?

EDIT: From the link you likely wont look at. "Just because illegal aliens are not legally entitled to these benefits does not mean they do not apply for them. Yes. It is true that illegal aliens have received grants, professional accreditations, loans, WIC, disability, public housing, college educations, food stamps, unemployment benefits, and tax credits from state and federal agencies. According to the U.S. Census Bureau, at least one third of foreign born citizens in the United States are illegal aliens. Since children born in the United States are considered U.S. Citizens, it becomes complicated when illegal aliens then bear children who are U.S. Citizens. If the U.S. government sent the parents of these children away, we would be separating families. Now that these families have given birth to U.S. citizens, the families are eligible for benefits such as WIC and food stamps. Benefits such as these are for low income families. Illegal aliens often work in low paying jobs so they now qualify for benefits.


Law Dictionary: Why is it that Illegal Aliens Get Free Food Stamps, Health Insurance and Pay No Taxes? Why is it that Illegal Aliens Get Free Food Stamps, Health Insurance and Pay No Taxes?
The link you cite is 90% about the benefits of having the immigrants in this country and the ONE paragraph of using the emergency room as the primary health care provider... which if you looked at the stats for who uses the emergency room for primary healthcare and skips out on the bill... 'real' citizens exceed immigrants by a wide margin in all but a few counties across the country.

You twist the food stamp issue once again.... Illegal immigrants don't get WIC or food stamps... the legal USofA citizen does. By law and the -please take your hat off- USofA CONSTITUTION anyone born on USofA soil is a USofA citizen. The children get the benefit, the legal guardian acts in the minor's behalf. The family doesn't get food stamps for 3 people but for one, the USofA citizen.

No doubt some slip passed the barriers, but again show some numbers, not just rants that are only half true at best.
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,700
Reaction score
5,703
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
The link you cite is 90% about the benefits of having the immigrants in this country and the ONE paragraph of using the emergency room as the primary health care provider... which if you looked at the stats for who uses the emergency room for primary healthcare and skips out on the bill... 'real' citizens exceed immigrants by a wide margin in all but a few counties across the country.

You twist the food stamp issue once again.... Illegal immigrants don't get WIC or food stamps... the legal USofA citizen does. By law and the -please take your hat off- USofA CONSTITUTION anyone born on USofA soil is a USofA citizen. The children get the benefit, the legal guardian acts in the minor's behalf. The family doesn't get food stamps for 3 people but for one, the USofA citizen.

No doubt some slip passed the barriers, but again show some numbers, not just rants that are only half true at best.
You just see what you want to see I guess, whatever.
 

code1211

DP Veteran
Joined
Jul 13, 2012
Messages
35,074
Reaction score
7,130
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Other
Well, this took off in a direction i didn't think about.

I was hoping to get a dialogue going on the system of immigration, not so much about the immigrants themselves.

The Ellis island model, I have always supposed, was the debarkation point for boatloads of people of various nationalities and ethnicities. All they needed to do was show up and they got in.

It would seem that this would be the way to do this now. After a while, everyone who was wanting to come would be here. They would also be documented and would be tracked as might be appropriate and taught the language and so on.

There must be some better way to do this than the way we are doing this. It is simply one more wedge issue that divides the population and delights the politicians as the seek more and more corrosive and hateful ways to set us against one another.

Our current political model is a bad one and the hatred and bile it produces poison our national discourse. We never seem to join the battle to solve issues as cooperative partners. It always seems to start with daggers drawn and blood sport as the method.
 

notquiteright

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
16,839
Reaction score
5,818
Location
okla-freakin-homa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
You just see what you want to see I guess, whatever.
THAT was MY point to YOU.

The first link has a long list of pluses for the immigrants and one para on the immigrants doing what MILLIONS of 'real' citizens do, use ER as primary care and then not paying the bill.

Next the food stamp crap where the article uses family when the ONLY recipient is the US CITIZEN. The family only gets food stamps for the US CITIZEN child.

And I do note you skip away from given any perspective on the 'problem' as you see it. just a vague whine about a free ride... :roll:
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,700
Reaction score
5,703
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
THAT was MY point to YOU.

The first link has a long list of pluses for the immigrants and one para on the immigrants doing what MILLIONS of 'real' citizens do, use ER as primary care and then not paying the bill.

Next the food stamp crap where the article uses family when the ONLY recipient is the US CITIZEN. The family only gets food stamps for the US CITIZEN child.

And I do note you skip away from given any perspective on the 'problem' as you see it. just a vague whine about a free ride... :roll:
The ER room thing alone is a free ride that is breaking this countries health care system. Illegals use it and abuse it.
 

notquiteright

DP Veteran
Joined
Mar 20, 2012
Messages
16,839
Reaction score
5,818
Location
okla-freakin-homa
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Progressive
The ER room thing alone is a free ride that is breaking this countries health care system. Illegals use it and abuse it.
More words with no numbers to back them up. FYI the healthcare system is breaking because millions of 'real' citizens use the ER room and not an insurance plan. The cost even with insurance is going through the roof for a variety of factors from an aging population to no public scrutiny of why it costs what it does to receive the care.

The 7 biggest factors-

1. We pay doctors per service rather than per result. More done gets more pay, but it isn't based on more efficient gets more reward.

2. We are older, fatter, sicker

3. go for newer in everything from drugs to procedures even when there is no clinical proof they are better.

4. seeking healthcare is tax deductible and many citizens get their coverage heavily subsidized by their company thus leads to over use

5. we don't make medical decisions based on facts but often emotion. Few of us understand the procedures discussed or more to the point not discussed and end-of-life choices often lead to expensive procedures with little chance of success.

6. hospitals and insurance have grow too big to be competitive. The choices for coverage and care are growing more and more limited as mergers combine in to massive corporations that stifle true competition.

7. lawsuits and insurances require a good deal of defensive medicine.

Now skips from the ER are bad, but most hospitals gets federal funds to cover the deadbeat patients, again the vast majority 'real' Citizens and the 'loss' is a tax write-off for the hospitals.

But i do note that now you pull back to ER rooms and have dropped the food stamp crap.... baby steps... :peace
 

sawyerloggingon

Banned
DP Veteran
Joined
May 6, 2011
Messages
14,700
Reaction score
5,703
Location
Where they have FOX on in bars and restaurants
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
More words with no numbers to back them up. FYI the healthcare system is breaking because millions of 'real' citizens use the ER room and not an insurance plan. The cost even with insurance is going through the roof for a variety of factors from an aging population to no public scrutiny of why it costs what it does to receive the care.

The 7 biggest factors-

1. We pay doctors per service rather than per result. More done gets more pay, but it isn't based on more efficient gets more reward.

2. We are older, fatter, sicker

3. go for newer in everything from drugs to procedures even when there is no clinical proof they are better.

4. seeking healthcare is tax deductible and many citizens get their coverage heavily subsidized by their company thus leads to over use

5. we don't make medical decisions based on facts but often emotion. Few of us understand the procedures discussed or more to the point not discussed and end-of-life choices often lead to expensive procedures with little chance of success.

6. hospitals and insurance have grow too big to be competitive. The choices for coverage and care are growing more and more limited as mergers combine in to massive corporations that stifle true competition.

7. lawsuits and insurances require a good deal of defensive medicine.

Now skips from the ER are bad, but most hospitals gets federal funds to cover the deadbeat patients, again the vast majority 'real' Citizens and the 'loss' is a tax write-off for the hospitals.

But i do note that now you pull back to ER rooms and have dropped the food stamp crap.... baby steps... :peace
Have not pulled back from anything but my time is limited. There are millions of illegals in this country and they all use the ER. Ever wonder why an aspirin cost 5 bucks in a hospital? Think about it.
 
Top Bottom