Ya its the pro choice's fault for all these women getting pregnant. Don't they know about abstaining from sex?

[Bodi]

But not kill them, not quite the same is it! Not quite the senario portrayed by some, is it!

Depends on how you look at it... a woman has a right to abort a child when it is past the point of viability... that is killing the child.

 

[Bodi]

My scenario only gives the man the same opportunity - the same "choice" the woman has.

I have been arguing this for over a decade here at DP

See a thread from 2019

Male Post-Conception Opt Out

Men to should be able to opt out of Child Support if they do not want to be a father (legally). The woman can use her legal Constitutional right to birth control if she does not want to or can not support the child on her own. (Of course there are some exceptions). This would give men the same...

debatepolitics.com

Men to should be able to opt out of Child Support if they do not want to be a father (legally). The woman can use her legal Constitutional right to birth control if she does not want to or can not support the child on her own. (Of course there are some exceptions).

This would give men the same rights as women... having a post-conception Opt Out of being a parent and not caring for the child.

She informs him of pregnancy. He makes hos choice. She retains 100% bodily autonomy and then makes her choice to abort or not.

There will be some exceptions obviously...

This argument is about POST CONCEPTION OPTIONS.

AFTER CONCEPTION.

Please don't be one of the many that will show up and say... "golly darnit he had his choice when he came... or... he has no choice"

The woman legally has a choice post-conception.
The man legally has not choice post-conception...

THE LAW forces his monetary contribution on the man for the woman's choice. This is a legal argument, not a biological one. Laws can change.

Without the law he could just walk away. This is about Potentially Changing Child Support Laws to attain EQUAL RIGHTS.

I am pro choice. I have equal care of my kids. This is a hypothetical argument about creating fairness of post conception choices for men.

Yes. Practice safe sex and use birth control...

Thoughts?

 

[screenwriter]

I have been arguing this for over a decade here at DP

See a thread from 2019

Male Post-Conception Opt Out

Men to should be able to opt out of Child Support if they do not want to be a father (legally). The woman can use her legal Constitutional right to birth control if she does not want to or can not support the child on her own. (Of course there are some exceptions). This would give men the same...

debatepolitics.com

Men to should be able to opt out of Child Support if they do not want to be a father (legally). The woman can use her legal Constitutional right to birth control if she does not want to or can not support the child on her own. (Of course there are some exceptions).

This would give men the same rights as women... having a post-conception Opt Out of being a parent and not caring for the child.

She informs him of pregnancy. He makes hos choice. She retains 100% bodily autonomy and then makes her choice to abort or not.

There will be some exceptions obviously...

This argument is about POST CONCEPTION OPTIONS.

AFTER CONCEPTION.

Please don't be one of the many that will show up and say... "golly darnit he had his choice when he came... or... he has no choice"

The woman legally has a choice post-conception.
The man legally has not choice post-conception...

THE LAW forces his monetary contribution on the man for the woman's choice. This is a legal argument, not a biological one. Laws can change.

Without the law he could just walk away. This is about Potentially Changing Child Support Laws to attain EQUAL RIGHTS.

I am pro choice. I have equal care of my kids. This is a hypothetical argument about creating fairness of post conception choices for men.

Yes. Practice safe sex and use birth control...

Thoughts?

I can't understand why women are so afraid of this. If they are given the right to " choose" so should the man. Are they thinking no man will ever step up and accept the responsibility? But the I can't understand how men who wouldn't are getting laid in the first place.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

The above is what informs you that anti-abortion Is not about fetuses but about getting the government to incorporate their dogma into US law. As Paul Weyrich said when he and Jerry Falwell set up the anti-abortion movement in 1979. "When political power is achieved, the moral majority will have the opportunity to re-create this great nation. We are talking about Christianizing America. We are talking about the Gospel in a political context.”

Anti-abortion is and has been right from its inception about circumventing the 1st Amendment.

It's another brick in the Wall of Theocracy.
And theocracy is 100% INCOMPATIBLE with democracy, which they have expressed an abiding hatred for.

 

[weaver2]

I wish that you would stop with that stupid comeback... it is disingenuous at best

.
disingenuous: not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
"he was being somewhat disingenuous as well as cynical". Synonym: dishonest, deceitful

Good, let's all stop being disingenuous about abortion. Let's start with using the appropriate terms, instead of lying about murdering babies. Then move on to being honest about biology, our real motives and our beliefs. That way we could conclude with honesty about economics, sex, respect and the freedom to make personal decisions about one's private lives.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

I'm simply talking about human rights. Giving a man a means to sever his obligation to a child as a woman can sever her obligation to that very child.

Been hanging around the MGTOW channels lately?

 

[screenwriter]

It's another brick in the Wall of Theocracy.
And theocracy is 100% INCOMPATIBLE with democracy, which they have expressed an abiding hatred for.

And then you have people like me who don't oppose abortion on religious grounds.

 

[rickc]

you people preach that to your kids all the time and they are getting just as pregnant as your neighbors and when it happens they get abortions just like everyone else. You should be blaming God for making it so much fun and enjoyable then adding in the fact that it is instinctive in every single animal in this world including us. your peoples solution is to force these women to have these children that they know they can't take care of and you belong to the group that will ignore and point finger at the mothers and children as the number of criminals increase in this country. You will also blame that as someone else's fault. Abortion is not a good thing in any way but you have absolutely no viable solution. Its just words rattling around a rather empty brain. You want to see total Hypocrisy, just look at the number of conservative men who choose abortion for themselves.

Well it probably has a lot to do with the religious right and its position on abstinence and access to birth control and sex education

 

[Bodi]

I can't understand why women are so afraid of this. If they are given the right to " choose" so should the man. Are they thinking no man will ever step up and accept the responsibility?

Most men already step up most of the time so I agree... and men should have that choice/option as well. I don't understand why women, especially some of the educated and intelligent ones that debate here, would be afraid of this either.

You are new but wait until you start hearing some of the men shrieking here about this discussion. LOL

But the I can't understand how men who wouldn't are getting laid in the first place.

But they are, and that is the problem... while everybody should be responsible, maybe women will be more selective whom they sleep with if men legally were allowed to opt-out of post-birth responsibilities ...

 

[Bodi]

.
disingenuous: not candid or sincere, typically by pretending that one knows less about something than one really does.
"he was being somewhat disingenuous as well as cynical". Synonym: dishonest, deceitful

Good, let's all stop being disingenuous about abortion. Let's start with using the appropriate terms, instead of lying about murdering babies. Then move on to being honest about biology, our real motives and our beliefs. That way we could conclude with honesty about economics, sex, respect and the freedom to make personal decisions about one's private lives.

before I respond more... do you think that abortion is murdering babies?

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

There are tons of men who walk out on their children.

My wife's ex husband!
They're MY kids now, and I love them dearly. He threw her and his kids away.
Oh...forgot to add, he's a Mormon, which probably figures into this because (A) Karen got seriously ill and wound up in a wheelchair, and our (his) son was born with five major heart defects.
That made Karen "damaged goods" because she would not be able to crank out a giant litter of babies to help him achieve elevated church status, plus she gave him a "defective" son anyway.
The roads and empty spaces of Utah are littered with tens of thousands of "Lost Boys" who have been ejected from their fundamentalist compounds as unwanted, it's a common custom out there and ANY excuse will do just fine.

 

[Checkerboard Strangler]

And then you have people like me who don't oppose abortion on religious grounds.

Hard to imagine ANYONE who LIKES abortion.
The problem with the pro-Life movement is that they not only won't allow it EVEN under dire circumstances like rape, incest or jeopardizing the life of the mother. They're even opposed to morning after pills AND contraception. In fact, they intend to criminalize all premarital and extramarital sex as well, if they ever get their way.

I would do anything and everything in my power to convince someone I know to not get an abortion however I would, in the end, honor their wishes if it turned out that there is no other good option. I agree that abortion is a tragedy.
But I've seen firsthand examples of why it still is sometimes necessary.

Pro-lifers need to stop telling themselves that all pro-choicers cheer every time an abortion is done, or that they LIKE abortion.

 

[Bodi]

My wife's ex husband!
They're MY kids now, and I love them dearly. He threw her and his kids away.
Oh...forgot to add, he's a Mormon, which probably figures into this because (A) Karen got seriously ill and wound up in a wheelchair, and our (his) son was born with five major heart defects.
That made Karen "damaged goods" because she would not be able to crank out a giant litter of babies to help him achieve elevated church status, plus she gave him a "defective" son anyway.
The roads and empty spaces of Utah are littered with tens of thousands of "Lost Boys" who have been ejected from their fundamentalist compounds as unwanted, it's a common custom out there and ANY excuse will do just fine.

Chill out on Mormons... those are just assholes, not Mormons... just like ISIS dudes are not Muslim.

I know Mormons who had issues with kids, health, etc and just had a kid or two and were great parents and people.

 

[weaver2]

before I respond more... do you think that abortion is murdering babies?

A discussion about abortion is a discussion about a legal matter. The terms should be appropriate to a legal discussion. Abortion should be defined as ending the development of an embryo or a fetus.

 

[Bodi]

So

A discussion about abortion is a discussion about a legal matter. The terms should be appropriate to a legal discussion. Abortion should be defined as ending the development of an embryo or a fetus.

you want to avoid being inaccurate and emotionalizing the issue?

 

[soylentgreen]

The obligation that the State enforces on him.

He has no post-conception opt out of parenthood should she choose to keep the baby but she does have a post-conception opt out of parenthood.

No, that obligation has already been explained. A man must take responsibility for his own actions not blame the woman or government for not letting him behave as if he does not have to face consequences for what he did.

The question I am asking is to the claim, " Men do not get the choice to "abort" their obligation from a child as a woman does."

So again I will ask, what obligation?

 

[soylentgreen]

And having a procedure that is equivalent to saying she has no responsibility in creating the child is a lie too?

She has no choice but to face the fact that she is pregnant. Unlike a male who can simply whinge that it is not his fault and he nothing to do with getting her pregnant. She cannot run away from being pregnant as you wish to do. It really is not possible for her say she has no responsibility when in fact the responsibility of deciding the future of the conception is hers and no one else.

Having an abortion is being responsible if that is her best choice. If on the other hand she decides to have the child then there is an obligation on both woman and man. So neither gets anything more or less than the other.

 

[weaver2]

So you want to avoid being inaccurate and emotionalizing the issue?

If someone was going to take away your ability to make decisions about the most personal aspects of your private life wouldn't your want to have some accuracy in the facts presented by the people trying to take away your rights? Let's say a religious group wanted to deny you the right to find and read information on Buddhism because they claim it is against God's word. Would you want the people denying you this right to lie about their reasons for doing so? Would you want them to lie about Buddhism? Lie about how it will destroy your life? Lie about how God will hate you? Everyone wants legal matters to deal with accurate facts, don't they?

 

[jbander]

Hard to imagine ANYONE who LIKES abortion.
The problem with the pro-Life movement is that they not only won't allow it EVEN under dire circumstances like rape, incest or jeopardizing the life of the mother. They're even opposed to morning after pills AND contraception. In fact, they intend to criminalize all premarital and extramarital sex as well, if they ever get their way.

I would do anything and everything in my power to convince someone I know to not get an abortion however I would, in the end, honor their wishes if it turned out that there is no other good option. I agree that abortion is a tragedy.
But I've seen firsthand examples of why it still is sometimes necessary.

Pro-lifers need to stop telling themselves that all pro-choicers cheer every time an abortion is done, or that they LIKE abortion.

Just one more reason that we have to dispose of them.

 

[soylentgreen]

[

A discussion about abortion is a discussion about a legal matter. The terms should be appropriate to a legal discussion. Abortion should be defined as ending the development of an embryo or a fetus.

Disagree abortion is a matter concerning only a pregnant woman and her doctor. Abortion is a medical issue. It is only the anti abortion crowd who want abortion to be a legal matter that they can use as a political football

 

[jbander]

[

Disagree abortion is a matter concerning only a pregnant woman and her doctor. Abortion is a medical issue. It is only the anti abortion crowd who want abortion to be a legal matter that they can use as a political football

iT'S LEGALLY LEGAL , THERE REALLY IS NOTHING ELSE BUT IGNORE IGNORE IGNORE!

 

[Bodi]

No, that obligation has already been explained. A man must take responsibility for his own actions not blame the woman or government for not letting him behave as if he does not have to face consequences for what he did.

The question I am asking is to the claim, " Men do not get the choice to "abort" their obligation from a child as a woman does."

So again I will ask, what obligation?

No. A man "must" not... women say that consent to have sex is not consent to having a child.... same goes for the man unless one is a hypocrite.

"Explained" doesn't mean diddly because you are ignoring the argument that I am coming up with. The law does not make you or the law right and saying, 'I have explained this... the law says this... that means this... " is a logically inferior argument. Just take a few minutes and let slavery being equal help you try and figure this out.

 

[soylentgreen]

No. A man "must" not... women say that consent to have sex is not consent to having a child.... same goes for the man unless one is a hypocrite.

"Explained" doesn't mean diddly because you are ignoring the argument that I am coming up with. The law does not make you or the law right and saying, 'I have explained this... the law says this... that means this... " is a logically inferior argument. Just take a few minutes and let slavery being equal help you try and figure this out.

No one is asking you to have a child so no problem there. No one is asking you to be a father so no problem there. All that is being asked is that you accept responsibility for your actions rather than just complain about a woman deciding what is good for her rather than what is good for a man.

I said nothing about the law . Nor do i need to use a legal argument to make my point. It is simply a morally correct and a logically sound position that a person be held responsible for their own actions which is all that is being asked of men.

 

[Integrityrespec]

you people preach that to your kids all the time and they are getting just as pregnant as your neighbors and when it happens they get abortions just like everyone else. You should be blaming God for making it so much fun and enjoyable then adding in the fact that it is instinctive in every single animal in this world including us. your peoples solution is to force these women to have these children that they know they can't take care of and you belong to the group that will ignore and point finger at the mothers and children as the number of criminals increase in this country. You will also blame that as someone else's fault. Abortion is not a good thing in any way but you have absolutely no viable solution. Its just words rattling around a rather empty brain. You want to see total Hypocrisy, just look at the number of conservative men who choose abortion for themselves.

Try birth control. Abstinence,

 

[screenwriter]

She has no choice but to face the fact that she is pregnant. Unlike a male who can simply whinge that it is not his fault and he nothing to do with getting her pregnant. She cannot run away from being pregnant as you wish to do. It really is not possible for her say she has no responsibility when in fact the responsibility of deciding the future of the conception is hers and no one else.

Having an abortion is being responsible if that is her best choice. If on the other hand she decides to have the child then there is an obligation on both woman and man. So neither gets anything more or less than the other.

What are you talking about? She can get control of his income tax refunds and garnish his wages against his will. And you said it perfectly "if she decides to have the child" - he has no choice in the matter. I thought freedom to choose was what it's all about. That freedom should extend to both sides of the equation. Why are you so afraid to extend this right to men?