WTC Collapse and My Shower Brush

[SanderO]

I have presented NO cardboard models of the WTC, The simple fact of asking WHY it is that chaotic damage could cause coherent "collapse" is sufficient to cause all sorts of lame excuses for how things happened the way they did.

The only three buildings in the complex to be completely destroyed
by the "terrorist attack" are WTC 1,2 & 7
Note that in the case of complete & total destruction of anything, the law-enforcement investigators are supposed to step in and declare the whole place a crime scene and control the access to it and indeed INVESTIGATE, however ... WHY was the Mayor of NYC allowed to get away with evidence tampering & obstruction of justice?

A! Bust the emperor for indecent exposure!

Try to be logical and intellectually honest if you can't do science. The hotel was completely destroyed as well. All the high rise building on the side collapsed under the wight of the mass aloft so to speak... all the low rises did not for the same reason. But the roof and floor structure succumbed nicely to the heavy steel which crashed onto them... as expected.

The towers collapsed as they did because of the CG and the fact that gravity vector is straight down. The structures themselves broke apart and in so doing some lateral motion was imparted to them... as expected... and the came down into what is a typical pile form... several of them.

They weren't destroyed by terrorist attack... they were destroyed by the forces released and presented to them by the planes. These forces overcame the strength of the joints and so forth and the structures collapsed.

Oh I forgot... the WTC collapsed because the Dutch bought Manhattan for $24 and eventually someone built the WTC. Blame it on the Native Americans... they never should have sold out.

 

[SanderO]

Amen Brother!

The biggest reason mass went outside the footprint, as far as several hundred feet with enough energy to impale pieces in WFC, was explosive devices. :2razz:

hahahahhahahahaaha this is hysterical...

The impaled pieces of steel came from I believe the 80 floor or so which was something like 1000 feet in elevation. The pieces impaled were part of a huge section of facade panels that came off in one huge piece perhaps more than 100 wide and 100 feet high... the rest of that large assembly is lying on the ground in front of and on the Winter Garden. have a look done by a Joe Princiotta who lost a nephew in the collapse

http://www.csi911.info/Exhibit_J.jpg

Go to the online physics site for trajectory and plug in the numbers... no explosives necessary!

If you want to see this huge assembly of panels FALLING you can see them on NBC footage that Chandler uses for his nonsense... completely ignoring their motion... inconvenient to explain away.

let's try posting a slide...

 

[mike2810]

SanderO.

We all should realize now that those that believe in controlled demolition will ignore anything that does not support their views.

In another thread a poster listed a lengthy list of what was stated as"facts". I was going to respond to it, but realized it would not matter. The post shows once again the use of partial facts, facts taken out of context, facts left out, and the interjection of opinion. 911 will continue on as has many other conspiracy theories have.

In today's multimedia age, conspiracy theories have found a new stage. For some it is a profitable one.

 

[SanderO]

SanderO.

We all should realize now that those that believe in controlled demolition will ignore anything that does not support their views.

In another thread a poster listed a lengthy list of what was stated as"facts". I was going to respond to it, but realized it would not matter. The post shows once again the use of partial facts, facts taken out of context, facts left out, and the interjection of opinion. 911 will continue on as has many other conspiracy theories have.

In today's multimedia age, conspiracy theories have found a new stage. For some it is a profitable one.

I have studied these structures and produced scores of didactic slides for my OWN understanding... I've offered to share with anyone who PMs me with an email address. No takers. hahahahaha interesting ha?

 

[mike2810]

I have studied these structures and produced scores of didactic slides for my OWN understanding... I've offered to share with anyone who PMs me with an email address. No takers. hahahahaha interesting ha?

I have looked at many publications, web postings, other forums that have produced well prepared documentation on the subject that covers both sides of the issue of controlled demolition. The CD side tends to play the what if game or brushes over their assumptions to get the outcome they want. As I stated, 911 has turned profitable for some.

There are reasons that some do not want to look at details, It does not fit their view.

(I may not agree on all your views, but the view that their is no evidence of CD we can agree on.)

 

[SanderO]

I have looked at many publications, web postings, other forums that have produced well prepared documentation on the subject that covers both sides of the issue of controlled demolition. The CD side tends to play the what if game or brushes over their assumptions to get the outcome they want. As I stated, 911 has turned profitable for some.

There are reasons that some do not want to look at details, It does not fit their view.

(I may not agree on all your views, but the view that their is no evidence of CD we can agree on.)

Precisely... the evidence is not there... but there is plenty to show that the collapses were structural failures caused by mech damage and heat weakening. Devices COULD produce the same outcomes... but there is no evidence of them. Case has not been made. PERIOD.

 

[Menard_K]

Try to be logical and intellectually honest if you can't do science. The hotel was completely destroyed as well. All the high rise building on the side collapsed under the wight of the mass aloft so to speak... all the low rises did not for the same reason. But the roof and floor structure succumbed nicely to the heavy steel which crashed onto them... as expected.

Question 4 U
is there any video of the Hotel Collapsing while the event was taking place?
or is there only the rubble pile?

So my point is, that the buildings WTC1,2 & 7 have all the characteristics of controlled demolition,
and if indeed the Hotel was also completely destroyed on 9/11/2001 ... lets add that to the list of very suspicious events that need to be investigated properly.

Lets look at some possibilities here, You brought up the possibility that given a variety of materials in the WTC towers that Thermite or other accelerants could have been simply manufactured by all the heat coupled with the presence of various raw materials .... Lets examine a what if, say the random reaction at the WTC managed to manufacture several kilos of Thermite, and said Thermite just happened to be in the middle of a floor area .. so what it would predictably do, is burn a hole in the deck and dropping through to the next deck, burns a hole in it also, does any of this result in the mass pulverization of the building?
The energy of any energetic material, in order to bring down a building must be FOCUSED, otherwise you have chaotic forces inflicting chaotic damage and the building will most probably be damaged but not destroyed.

 

[SanderO]

Question 4 U
is there any video of the Hotel Collapsing while the event was taking place?
or is there only the rubble pile?

So my point is, that the buildings WTC1,2 & 7 have all the characteristics of controlled demolition,
and if indeed the Hotel was also completely destroyed on 9/11/2001 ... lets add that to the list of very suspicious events that need to be investigated properly.

Lets look at some possibilities here, You brought up the possibility that given a variety of materials in the WTC towers that Thermite or other accelerants could have been simply manufactured by all the heat coupled with the presence of various raw materials .... Lets examine a what if, say the random reaction at the WTC managed to manufacture several kilos of Thermite, and said Thermite just happened to be in the middle of a floor area .. so what it would predictably do, is burn a hole in the deck and dropping through to the next deck, burns a hole in it also, does any of this result in the mass pulverization of the building?
The energy of any energetic material, in order to bring down a building must be FOCUSED, otherwise you have chaotic forces inflicting chaotic damage and the building will most probably be damaged but not destroyed.

The mass of the floors are what pulverized everything. Imagine taking a set of china in a bag and dropping it 100x from say 8' high onto a concrete floor. Open the bag... what you have is close to dust.

The driving mass was set free when the columns failed.. and so drops the initial 30,000 tons of debris in WTC1. In WTC 2 it was more like 80,000 tons. OUCH.. that's damn unstoppable by the 4" slabs.

No need for thermite to start... but AFTER the fall who knows what the pulverized soup produced?

 

[Menard_K]

The mass of the floors are what pulverized everything. Imagine taking a set of china in a bag and dropping it 100x from say 8' high onto a concrete floor. Open the bag... what you have is close to dust.

The driving mass was set free when the columns failed.. and so drops the initial 30,000 tons of debris in WTC1. In WTC 2 it was more like 80,000 tons. OUCH.. that's damn unstoppable by the 4" slabs.

No need for thermite to start... but AFTER the fall who knows what the pulverized soup produced?

No info on that Hotel "collapse" .... or?

& ya, the Pulverized soup would be randomized and would not yield significant quantities of thermite
or fulminate of Mercury .... or anything of the sort.

Here is my take on the falling mass bit:
mass from above even if its traveling say 20 m/s ... encounters stationary mass
( that is the floor directly below it ) and smashes into said floor - now the net effect of the downward motion observed for the towers, is uniform downward motion, HOWEVER what would have to happen is that the stationary mass would have to be accelerated in order to keep pace with the already falling bit that was traveling 20 m/s, in fact, in order to do work ( that is pulverize tons of material ) the bit that was traveling 20 m/s would have to give up some of its energy and so even if it slowed to 19 m/s it would have to slow down. The effective speed of the descent of the towers as clocked in relation to objects in true free-fall near the tower, indicates that the descent was at .64 of the acceleration of gravity, but that is NOT possible because the falling mass would have to give up some of its energy each time it pulverizes a floor.

Look at it this way, place a walnut on a blacksmiths anvil and with the biggest hammer available strike the walnut. The result is predictable, the nut shatters and bits fly everywhere, & please note .... the hammer had to stop
now we place a walnut on a 8' tall stack of foam blocks and get the jolly green giant to swing the hammer and the hammer strikes the walnut and keeps going for a good bit but eventually comes to a stop, what happened to the nut, it gets cracked, but not pulverized. Can U dig it?

 

[SanderO]

No info on that Hotel "collapse" .... or?

& ya, the Pulverized soup would be randomized and would not yield significant quantities of thermite
or fulminate of Mercury .... or anything of the sort.

Here is my take on the falling mass bit:
mass from above even if its traveling say 20 m/s ... encounters stationary mass
( that is the floor directly below it ) and smashes into said floor - now the net effect of the downward motion observed for the towers, is uniform downward motion, HOWEVER what would have to happen is that the stationary mass would have to be accelerated in order to keep pace with the already falling bit that was traveling 20 m/s, in fact, in order to do work ( that is pulverize tons of material ) the bit that was traveling 20 m/s would have to give up some of its energy and so even if it slowed to 19 m/s it would have to slow down. The effective speed of the descent of the towers as clocked in relation to objects in true free-fall near the tower, indicates that the descent was at .64 of the acceleration of gravity, but that is NOT possible because the falling mass would have to give up some of its energy each time it pulverizes a floor.

Look at it this way, place a walnut on a blacksmiths anvil and with the biggest hammer available strike the walnut. The result is predictable, the nut shatters and bits fly everywhere, & please note .... the hammer had to stop
now we place a walnut on a 8' tall stack of foam blocks and get the jolly green giant to swing the hammer and the hammer strikes the walnut and keeps going for a good bit but eventually comes to a stop, what happened to the nut, it gets cracked, but not pulverized. Can U dig it?

The dropping mass shattered the slabs into macro pieces.; The crushing cam at the end as the full mass crushed and pulverized the chunks.

foam blocks and walnuts? What have you been smoking?

 

[mike2810]

The dropping mass shattered the slabs into macro pieces.; The crushing cam at the end as the full mass crushed and pulverized the chunks.

foam blocks and walnuts? What have you been smoking?

ever notice that those that support CD rarely discuss the damage done by fire? They also try to redirect. They also seem to not want to admit that just maybe once it all started to come down the design of the structure was not as strong as they think it was.

and whatever MK has been smoking, I don't think I want to try it.

 

[Menard_K]

ever notice that those that support CD rarely discuss the damage done by fire? They also try to redirect. They also seem to not want to admit that just maybe once it all started to come down the design of the structure was not as strong as they think it was.

and whatever MK has been smoking, I don't think I want to try it.

So ... Mike D00D, do you agree with the following:
>"The dropping mass shattered the slabs into macro pieces.; The crushing came at the end as the full mass crushed and pulverized the chunks."

very simple, agree, or disagree?

 

[mike2810]

So ... Mike D00D, do you agree with the following:
>"The dropping mass shattered the slabs into macro pieces.; The crushing came at the end as the full mass crushed and pulverized the chunks."

very simple, agree, or disagree?

Not enough info.
source of the quote please.
dropping mass can shatter slabs.
its your last statement that needs investigation.

Have you quit beating your significant other? Agree or disagree, very simple.

if you agree, then that means you did beat the person in the past.
if you disagree it mans you still are.

 

[Menard_K]

Not enough info.
source of the quote please.
dropping mass can shatter slabs.
its your last statement that needs investigation.

Have you quit beating your significant other? Agree or disagree, very simple.

if you agree, then that means you did beat the person in the past.
if you disagree it mans you still are.

Wow man, this scene is almost radioactive with cognitive dissonance !

Now what Dr. Zarkov?
> I donno ... we punt?

 

[Fisher]

I wondered throughout the whole OP: "Who gets dirty enough that they have to use a brush to get clean in the shower?"

We keep one around because it is handy to kill spiders with, but there was one other thing I noticed from the op:

With the towers there was no visible BIG event that preceded the top drops. It was standing tall one sec and then it was descending and then soon after it was gone. Failures are often like that... stable until they are not.

I'd say that two planes crashing into them and exploding were both pretty VISIBLE and pretty BIG events, but what do I know.

 

[Thoreau72]

Jeffrey

You're way better with numbers than I am, and I was wondering if you might calculate the approximate mass of that piece impaled at WFC. Then let's calculate the amount of energy required to remove those pieces from the facade and move them the several hundred feet to where they impaled?

And because it was impaled, a bit more energy would be required to make it penetrate the other wall.

Thanks in advance. :lol:

Any of the other hotshots with numbers is also welcome to do the math on that problem and post it here.

 

[SanderO]

Jeffrey

You're way better with numbers than I am, and I was wondering if you might calculate the approximate mass of that piece impaled at WFC. Then let's calculate the amount of energy required to remove those pieces from the facade and move them the several hundred feet to where they impaled?

And because it was impaled, a bit more energy would be required to make it penetrate the other wall.

Thanks in advance. :lol:

Any of the other hotshots with numbers is also welcome to do the math on that problem and post it here.

the impaled panel I believe weighed 4 tons... but I am on the boat and the files are on home PC...I'll post what I have on this when I can.

 

[Thoreau72]

4 tons by a factor of at least 10.

 

[Sphere]

Did it pulverize itself into micron size particles, did it pulverize the floor of your tub?
Did it compact itself into a crater in your tub?

 

[SanderO]

the impaled panel I believe weighed 4 tons... but I am on the boat and the files are on home PC...I'll post what I have on this when I can.

I checked my calcs and the panels from that region weighed about 7.5 tons each (3 columns x 36' H + 3 spandrels.) They were joined in perhaps 25 or more panels when they hit the AmEx bldg. One snagged it and impaled into the corner.

The assembly was in free fall... and so the forced was not that of the single panel but the entire assembly which impaled a single panel and the others broke free and landed 22 stories below on the ground and on the East side of the Winter Garden.

These panels... approximately 25 or so... came off as a single sheet. The spanned perhaps 9 stories and were 1/4 - 1/2 as wide as the tower's facade. They cab be seen as a flat sheet sailing over from slightly vertical orientation to horizontal before they are lost inside of the dust canopy. IMPOSSIBLE TO EXPLODE THIS ASSEMBLY OFF THE FACADE WITH ANY TECHNOLOGY THEN OR NOW. THEY FELL WHEN THE FLOORS WHICH BRACED THEM WERE STRIPED AWAY AND THE ENTIRE FACADE TIPPED OUTWARD AND BROKE INTO SEVERAL LARGE ASSEMBLIES FALLING AT FF TO THE GROUND.

 

[mike2810]

SanderO

What is your take of this site?

Towers Collapse - Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and controlled demolition

 

[SanderO]

SanderO

What is your take of this site?

Towers Collapse - Debunking 9/11 Conspiracy Theories and controlled demolition

Seems to contain some good information, but I find some of the NIST thinking and observations questionable. I find their investigation didn't look at all areas and all possibilities such as the TTF region in 7.

Frankly after years of this... I'm weary of all the "professional presentations"... the CVDs , papers, web sites which seek to analyze and theorize.

The data set is incomplete. The investigations did not over turn every stone. All sorts of people and groups and so forth leveraged 9/11 to advance an agenda or a political and economic position. Many select the dots they wish to connect... even inferring that these dots are there... and it's hard to really say much in the end with 100% certainty about any aspect of 9/11. Yet I don't see the sort of convincing evidence of CD that some believe is there. I don't see any proof that this was a conspiracy of insiders or the Izzies. I do believe that people abuse the power that they have and that they and their associates will conceal incompetence, corruption and malfeasance because no one like to get caught misbehaving. This goes on all the time inside gov and outside in the private sector. I believe the US policies have given rise to terrorist groups with a legitimate animus for the US... and they have and will continue to engage what they perceive to be their enemy in whatever means they can. And I believe that violence begets violence and until the mindset of militarism and power/control as the means to solve the world's problems not much will change. We don't seem to have learned much from 9/11 and those that have have had little impact and their voices downed out. Things have gotten a lot worse and it was not because of terrorism.

 

[Thoreau72]

I checked my calcs and the panels from that region weighed about 7.5 tons each (3 columns x 36' H + 3 spandrels.) They were joined in perhaps 25 or more panels when they hit the AmEx bldg. One snagged it and impaled into the corner.

The assembly was in free fall... and so the forced was not that of the single panel but the entire assembly which impaled a single panel and the others broke free and landed 22 stories below on the ground and on the East side of the Winter Garden.

These panels... approximately 25 or so... came off as a single sheet. The spanned perhaps 9 stories and were 1/4 - 1/2 as wide as the tower's facade. They cab be seen as a flat sheet sailing over from slightly vertical orientation to horizontal before they are lost inside of the dust canopy. IMPOSSIBLE TO EXPLODE THIS ASSEMBLY OFF THE FACADE WITH ANY TECHNOLOGY THEN OR NOW. THEY FELL WHEN THE FLOORS WHICH BRACED THEM WERE STRIPED AWAY AND THE ENTIRE FACADE TIPPED OUTWARD AND BROKE INTO SEVERAL LARGE ASSEMBLIES FALLING AT FF TO THE GROUND.

Nonsense. Desperate and misleading statements in an effort to dodge the truth.

Tipped over. :lamo

 

[Kat Dorman]

Nonsense. Desperate and misleading statements in an effort to dodge the truth.

Tipped over. :lamo

They tipped over.

 

[Thoreau72]

They tipped over.

Of course they did Kat. Right after the leprechauns pushed them over, eh? :lamo