Would you pay $5,789 a year so that everyone has health care?

[bave]

It's a standard way of showing income per capita by country. Irrelevant to our discussion. It is, I suspect, GDP per capita that you're looking at.

Can you provide a link to the World Bank data?

No, GDP per capita is not what I am looking for, at all.

The purpose of me bringing up household incomes and per capita incomes is that you were trying to compare cost as a percentage of overall income and you grossly understated it.

I looked at the data a variety of ways, the disparity is consistent in that there is always a 30-50% spread between US income and Canadian income, with the gross disparity being on the lower side and the net disparity on the higher side.

Adjusted net national income per capita (current US$) | Data

Adjusted net national income per capita (current US$) from The World Bank: Data

data.worldbank.org

 

[Allan]

No, GDP per capita is not what I am looking for, at all.

The purpose of me bringing up household incomes and per capita incomes is that you were trying to compare cost as a percentage of overall income and you grossly understated it.

I looked at the data a variety of ways, the disparity is consistent in that there is always a 30-50% spread between US income and Canadian income, with the gross disparity being on the lower side and the net disparity on the higher side.

Adjusted net national income per capita (current US$) | Data

Adjusted net national income per capita (current US$) from The World Bank: Data

data.worldbank.org

That is 'adjusted net income per capita' for the nation, not its individuals. It includes all income for the country including for example corporate and government revenue. That is defined to the right of the graph.

We are discussing individual person's income, not a country's income.

 

[Allan]

Here is the methodology which is explained in a link right in the graph:

• Long Definition: Adjusted net national income is GNI minus consumption of fixed capital and natural resources depletion.
• Periodicity: Annual
• Statistical Concept and Methodology: Adjusted net national income complements gross national income (GNI) in assessing economic progress (Hamilton and Ley 2010) by providing a broader measure of national income that accounts for the depletion of natural resources. Adjusted net national income is calculated by subtracting from GNI a charge for the consumption of fixed capital (a calculation that yields net national income) and for the depletion of natural resources. The deduction for the depletion of natural resources, which covers net forest depletion, energy depletion, and mineral depletion, reflects the decline in asset values associated with the extraction and harvesting of natural resources. This is analogous to depreciation of fixed assets. Growth rates of adjusted net national income are computed from constant price series deflated using the gross national expenditure (formerly domestic absorption) deflator.

This is completely irrelevant to a person or family's income.

 

[Visbek]

No, GDP per capita is not what I am looking for, at all.

World Bank's "adjusted Net National Income" is as follows:

The standard measure of income in the United Nations System of National Accounts (SNA) is Net National Income (NNI), defined as Gross National Income (GNI) minus depreciation of fixed capital. aNNI starts with NNI, then subtracts a charge for the depletion of energy, mineral and forest resources, reflecting the decline in asset values associated with their extraction and harvest—this is analogous to depreciation of fixed assets.

https://documents1.worldbank.org/curated/en/387621468176678007/pdf/638480WDI0Exto00Box0361527B0PUBLIC0.pdf

You aren't looking at GDP, but GNI is similar. It's the total income collected by a country's people and business. I.e. aNNI per capita is not the same thing as, say...

Median household income
US = $43,585
Canada = $41,280

Median per-capita income
US = $15,480
Canada = $15,181

Worldwide, Median Household Income About $10,000

New Gallup global income data estimate the median household income across 131 countries at $9,733, and median per-capita income at $2,920. Incomes in the 10 wealthiest countries are more than 50 times those in the 10 poorest.

news.gallup.com

It should also be very clear that the US and Canada have basically the same standard of living.

 

[bave]

You aren't looking at GDP, but GNI is similar. It's the total income collected by a country's people and business. I.e. aNNI per capita is not the same thing as, say...

In the circumstance where we can't get clean median household income numbers from Canada it is the best proxy we have. Canada doesn't report the same way everyone else does so it is all screwed up and you have to use a proxy.

Median household income
US = $43,585
Canada = $41,280

Incorrect.

Income and Poverty in the United States: 2019

This report presents data on income, earnings, income inequality & poverty in the United States based on information collected in the 2018 and earlier CPS ASEC.

www.census.gov

Median US household income is $68.7M

This is my point. You can't get that comparable data point from the Canadian government. The closest thing you can get is their median after tax income, which is $41,280.

You can get WB info on disposable income, which shows similar disparity.

It should also be very clear that the US and Canada have basically the same standard of living.

I don't know about that, people would say the same for France, but there is a huge disparity there.

 

[Allan]

In the circumstance where we can't get clean median household income numbers from Canada it is the best proxy we have. Canada doesn't report the same way everyone else does so it is all screwed up and you have to use a proxy.



Incorrect.

Income and Poverty in the United States: 2019

This report presents data on income, earnings, income inequality & poverty in the United States based on information collected in the 2018 and earlier CPS ASEC.

www.census.gov

Median US household income is $68.7M

This is my point. You can't get that comparable data point from the Canadian government. The closest thing you can get is their median after tax income, which is $41,280.

You can get WB info on disposable income, which shows similar disparity.



I don't know about that, people would say the same for France, but there is a huge disparity there.

Your posts demonstrate some real confusion about this. Earlier you tried to compare income using two different currencies and now you're using an irrelevant measure to define a person's income.

 

[bave]

Your posts demonstrate some real confusion about this. Earlier you tried to compare income using two different currencies and now you're using an irrelevant measure to define a person's income.

You are posting made up numbers to show a 4% share of income for total healthcare costs. The problem for comparable figures is your government is the odd-man out in global economic reporting. For some bastardized reason Canada doesn't feel the need to actually provide household economic data in an unaltered form.

 

[Allan]

You are posting made up numbers to show a 4% share of income for total healthcare costs. The problem for comparable figures is your government is the odd-man out in global economic reporting. For some bastardized reason Canada doesn't feel the need to actually provide household economic data in an unaltered form.

It wasn't 'made up' in that I provided a link to the source. I revised that number downward in a later post based on Statistics Canada reporting. And @Visbek has defined household income above. You misunderstood the World Bank figure and tried to use it for household income. And now that your error has been pointed out by Visbek and me you're doubling down and trying to say it's a 'proxy'. You might as well try to take the number of cows in each country as representative of income if you're going to do that.

 

[bave]

It wasn't 'made up' in that I provided a link to the source. I revised that number downward in a later post based on Statistics Canada reporting. And @Visbek has defined household income above. You misunderstood the World Bank figure and tried to use it for household income. And now that your error has been pointed out by Visbek and me you're doubling down and trying to say it's a 'proxy'. You might as well try to take the number of cows in each country as representative of income if you're going to do that.

If you have a source for a clean canadian median income statistic set I am more than happy to read it. Meanwhile you and Visbek keep posting badly sourced and inaccurate data time and time again.

 

[Napoleon]

Your question is misleading. Every single UHC country in the world pays a fraction what we do per capita, and many rank higher in quality of care.

The actual question is: "Would you like to pay way less than you currently are for healthcare while getting full coverage for life for you, your family, and the rest of your countrymen?"

The actual question is: “Who is “you?”

For most of us, the taxes required to pay for this scheme would exceed our current costs.

 

[smallvoice]

Me either not one single person I have ever known.........NOT ONE. There was one exception but it had nothing to do directly with our healthcare system. In fact, it was a positive for our healthcare system. My niece developed colon cancer at age 30. It was very advanced and aggressive. The oncology team at McMaster University Health Centre knew there was no approved treatment that would help her but one of the oncologists was involved in an experimental treatment being conducted at Sloan Kettering in Manhattan. Our Universal healthcare paid for her series of five treatmemts, flights to and from Manhattan, hotel bills and meals. Her Mom went with her but had to pay her own way.....fair enough.

And I don't know anyone who caught COVID, but they say it happened a lot...

 

[Callen]

And I don't know anyone who caught COVID, but they say it happened a lot...

I am happy for you ...then again you say you live in God's country so are maybe particularly blessed.

 

[seymourflops]

Would you be willing to pay $5,789 per year, about $500 a month so that every man, woman, and child has health care in America? A Canadian like system?

You had me until the last sentence.

No thanks.

But that's me. You do you.

 

[Visbek]

In the circumstance where we can't get clean median household income numbers from Canada it is the best proxy we have.

lol... What nonsense is this? You didn't even read the link -- the data source is Gallup, not the Canadian government. Plus, the idea that you get a more accurate bead on household income by mixing personal and business income is ludicrous.

Incorrect.

The numbers are correct, just a bit old. For 2019:

US = $68,703.2
Canada = $62,900.3

And no, you don't get to arbitrarily toss away statistics just because they don't suit your ideological preferences.

I don't know about that, people would say the same for France, but there is a huge disparity there.

Whatever, dude. I see no evidence, nor have you offered any, that the standard of living in the US is 40% higher than in Canada.

 

[Callen]

Whatever, dude. I see no evidence, nor have you offered any, that the standard of living in the US is 40% higher than in Canada.

I live 25% to 30% of my year in the US and I see no real difference in the standard of living between the US and Canada. What I do see is a huge disparity between the haves and have not. The extremes of poverty and wealth seem much more pronounced in the US but I will admit that may be a subjective view on my part.

 

[bave]

lol... What nonsense is this? You didn't even read the link -- the data source is Gallup, not the Canadian government. Plus, the idea that you get a more accurate bead on household income by mixing personal and business income is ludicrous.

It is a *poll* of 2000 individuals. In what world do you think that is a basis for assessing a national economic system?

Whatever, dude. I see no evidence, nor have you offered any, that the standard of living in the US is 40% higher than in Canada.

OECD Better Life Index

www.oecdbetterlifeindex.org

How about the net adjusted household disposable income? Canada @ $30,854 USD vs the US @ $45,284?

Or, we can use:

Market income, government transfers, total income, income tax and after-tax income by economic family type

Market income, government transfers, total income, income tax and after-tax income, by economic family type, annual.

www150.statcan.gc.ca

Which shows gross median individual income of 27,200CAD vs 31,300USD in the US.

It is a pretty consistent ~50% spread in the individual income space.

 

[bave]

I live 25% to 30% of my year in the US and I see no real difference in the standard of living between the US and Canada. What I do see is a huge disparity between the haves and have not. The extremes of poverty and wealth seem much more pronounced in the US but I will admit that may be a subjective view on my part.

It is higher, but that is generally true as wealth and income rises. The average wealth in the US is something like 40% higher than that of Canadians.

 

[Allan]

The average wealth in the US is something like 40% higher than that of Canadians.

Got a link for this claim?

 

[bave]

Got a link for this claim?

Median and Average Net Worth

What’s the median and average net worth in Canada or the United States? What should your net worth be when you’re 40 years old? What’s the average net worth of married couples in …

www.freedomthirtyfiveblog.com

https://www.freedomthirtyfiveblog.com/kj4tv8dlagreat/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/gwr-2015-global-press-release-global-wealth-credit-suisse.pdf

432M v 294M.

So correction, 47% spread.

 

[Gaius46]

I just retired and am on my employers retiree medical plan. I pay $1027/month for my wife and I - both of us are in good health.

Medical insurance is our single biggest expense. It represents about 20% of our monthly expenditures. Something is wrong with that picture.

 

[Allan]

It is higher, but that is generally true as wealth and income rises. The average wealth in the US is something like 40% higher than that of Canadians.

Never mind, found it here.

Median wealth per adult in USD:
12th Canada: $125,688.
24th US: $79,274.

 

[bave]

Never mind, found it here.

Median wealth per adult in USD:
12th Canada: $125,688.
24th US: $79,274.

Back to using excellent sources I see. Why use economics data and instead just resort to Wiki.

Credit Suisse and GS both do annual household net worth compilations based on nation archival data. Might want to use that instead.

 

[Allan]

Back to using excellent sources I see. Why use economics data and instead just resort to Wiki.

Credit Suisse and GS both do annual household net worth compilations based on nation archival data. Might want to use that instead.

The source is not Wikipedia. The source is "Global Wealth Databook 2021" published by Credit Suisse.

 

[Grand Mal]

It is higher, but that is generally true as wealth and income rises. The average wealth in the US is something like 40% higher than that of Canadians.

Here's the problem with this kind of average.
Country A has 1,000 population and $1,000,000 total annual income for an average of $1,000 per person. Everyone makes pretty much the same so everyone makes around $1,000.
Country B has 1,000 population but a total annual income of $1,500,000, giving an average of $1,500 per person per year. Trouble is, 10 people make $100,000 per year, leaving $500,000 split 990 ways, about $500 per year.
In which country is the average person better off?
Obviously this is a huge exaggeration but you get the principle, right?

 

[bave]

The source is not Wikipedia. The source is "Global Wealth Databook 2021" published by Credit Suisse.

Which, according to the Credit Suisse Wealth Report 2021 the numbers are 505M US vs 355M Canada, similar numbers.