Would you pay $5,789 a year so that everyone has health care?

[Allan]

I am on topic,

I have discussed costs and availability.

You cannot account for how your healthcare plan will be paid for ........along with running every other services the feds spend on.

You also do not account for how all of a sudden healthcare will become cheaper.

Healthcare would be paid for as it is in all other countries with UHC. Corporate and individual taxes cover the cost.

I'm not sure why this is a mystery.

 

[RetiredUSN]

Yes , I would suggest they were either negligent in identifying their concerns to their doctor or had lousy doctors...likely the former .

Knee and hip issues do not have sudden onset.

The average wait time for hip and knee replacement in Canada is 41 weeks. But, I imagine that it varies depending in what province you live in, and caseloading.

Patients take flight: Albertans look elsewhere to avoid surgery wait times

Could you, would you, leave the comforts of home and fly to another country for medical treatment? An increasing number of Albertans are doing just that,…

calgaryherald.com

For hip replacements, it’s an average of 41 weeks. And approximately 30 percent of Canadians who required a hip or knee replacement didn’t have their procedure done within the recommended wait times in 2018, according to new data released by the Canadian Institute for Health Information.

From the NEJM........

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199410203311607

Health care reform in the United States has focused attention on universal single-payer health insurance systems, such as the one in Canada1,2. Millions of Americans lack health insurance,3 and health care expenditures in the United States have increased dramatically. Some have suggested that Canada has achieved cost containment by rationing health care,4-6 with a commensurate reduction in the quality of care,7-9 including restricted availability of sophisticated diagnostic and therapeutic technology4,7-9. Publicly funded health systems, in Canada and elsewhere, are also criticized for waiting times for surgery that many believe are inordinately longer than those in the United States1,4,5,9-17.

Knee replacement can be an effective treatment to alleviate pain and enhance physical functioning in patients with arthritis of the knee18. An extended wait for surgery may prolong pain and difficulties in physical function. Waiting times for knee replacement are a measure of access to an important surgical procedure for a non-life-threatening condition. We compared the duration and acceptability to patients of waiting times for orthopedic consultations and knee-replacement surgery in the United States and the province of Ontario, Canada.


Again, I'm not knocking Canada's healthcare system. What I am concerned about is the wait times and rationing which will undoubtedly happen here in the states as well. I had 2 friends drugged up by the VA for years here in the Norfolk area, and they ended up committing suicide.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

I am on topic,

I have discussed costs and availability.

You cannot account for how your healthcare plan will be paid for ........along with running every other services the feds spend on.

You also do not account for how all of a sudden healthcare will become cheaper.

I don't have to account for something that's cheaper. No system in the world pays anywhere near what we do. Regulation and reshaping our healthcare industry would do it.

Just be honest, you don't want affordable healthcare because you like watching tens of millions of Americans being unable to see a doctor and tens of millions more bankrupted by massive medical debt. You'll defend failure until your dying breath because you're dishonest and have a malicious heart.

The average wait time for hip and knee replacement in Canada is 41 weeks. But, I imagine that it varies depending in what province you live in, and caseloading.

Patients take flight: Albertans look elsewhere to avoid surgery wait times

Could you, would you, leave the comforts of home and fly to another country for medical treatment? An increasing number of Albertans are doing just that,…

calgaryherald.com

For hip replacements, it’s an average of 41 weeks. And approximately 30 percent of Canadians who required a hip or knee replacement didn’t have their procedure done within the recommended wait times in 2018, according to new data released by the Canadian Institute for Health Information.

From the NEJM........

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199410203311607

Health care reform in the United States has focused attention on universal single-payer health insurance systems, such as the one in Canada1,2. Millions of Americans lack health insurance,3 and health care expenditures in the United States have increased dramatically. Some have suggested that Canada has achieved cost containment by rationing health care,4-6 with a commensurate reduction in the quality of care,7-9 including restricted availability of sophisticated diagnostic and therapeutic technology4,7-9. Publicly funded health systems, in Canada and elsewhere, are also criticized for waiting times for surgery that many believe are inordinately longer than those in the United States1,4,5,9-17.

Knee replacement can be an effective treatment to alleviate pain and enhance physical functioning in patients with arthritis of the knee18. An extended wait for surgery may prolong pain and difficulties in physical function. Waiting times for knee replacement are a measure of access to an important surgical procedure for a non-life-threatening condition. We compared the duration and acceptability to patients of waiting times for orthopedic consultations and knee-replacement surgery in the United States and the province of Ontario, Canada.


Again, I'm not knocking Canada's healthcare system. What I am concerned about is the wait times and rationing which will undoubtedly happen here in the states as well. I had 2 friends drugged up by the VA for years here in the Norfolk area, and they ended up committing suicide.

You don't care about wait times as you have a large portion of America who would wait forever for a knee surgery because they can't afford it. You don't care about that so don't pretend you care about wait times in other countries.

 

[bave]

That is total nonsense. You're trying to blame the ridiculous expense of our healthcare system on piss poor end of life care. In America before the ACA you could get turned down by your insurance for any reason, and they did.

Actually, there is a ton of data to show that a huge portion of total healthcare spending in the US occurs at the end of life. It is also pretty clearly supported in data that countries with national systems have systems in place to limit care for older/sicker individuals.

You don't care about wait times as you have a large portion of America who would wait forever for a knee surgery because they can't afford it. You don't care about that so don't pretend you care about wait times in other countries.

Citation to support this? Last I checked the vast majority of joint replacements are covered under Medicare.

 

[Callen]

It is also pretty clearly supported in data that countries with national systems have systems in place to limit care for older/sicker individuals.

I don't know about other countries with universal healthcare but that is certainly not the case in Canada. There is nothing in place that controls healthcare for older/sicker patients. NOTHING

 

[Allan]

Actually, there is a ton of data to show that a huge portion of total healthcare spending in the US occurs at the end of life. It is also pretty clearly supported in data that countries with national systems have systems in place to limit care for older/sicker individuals.

If this were true people in UHC countries would die earlier.

But countries with UHC have one thing in common: all have life expectancies higher than the US.

 

[bave]

If this were true people in UHC countries would die earlier.

But countries with UHC have one thing in common: all have life expectancies higher than the US.

That is a simplistic analysis. Healthcare doesn't equal long lives.

Go look at Okinawa and some of the pacific islands where there is very little healthcare and yet people tend to live much longer than anywhere else in the world on average. It is hugely about diet, individual choices, activity, and genetics.

America is massive obese and incredibly sedentary compared to almost anywhere else in the world. Those two things are going to dramatically impact life expectancy more than any amount of medical intervention. It is also a good reason why our costs per patient are so much higher. Keeping fatties alive is very difficult and rather expensive.

 

[bave]

I don't know about other countries with universal healthcare but that is certainly not the case in Canada. There is nothing in place that controls healthcare for older/sicker patients. NOTHING

I can't speak to Canada as much, but the best example of this is the UK.

I would also point out the figures in this thread are inaccurate.

Spending per capita in Canada are ~$7100 annually compared to the US at ~$10900

 

[Allan]

That is a simplistic analysis. Healthcare doesn't equal long lives.

Obviously it plays a role.

Go look at Okinawa and some of the pacific islands where there is very little healthcare and yet people tend to live much longer than anywhere else in the world on average. It is hugely about diet, individual choices, activity, and genetics.

Japan has UHC. Okinawa has excellent health care facilities - among the best in the world.

America is massive obese and incredibly sedentary compared to almost anywhere else in the world. Those two things are going to dramatically impact life expectancy more than any amount of medical intervention. It is also a good reason why our costs per patient are so much higher. Keeping fatties alive is very difficult and rather expensive.

Obesity is not unique to America. Some pacific islands (such as Samoa, Tonga) have higher obesity rates than the US, and yet have longer life expectancy.

 

[Allan]

I can't speak to Canada as much, but the best example of this is the UK.

I would also point out the figures in this thread are inaccurate.

Spending per capita in Canada are ~$7100 annually compared to the US at ~$10900

You are mixing currencies. 7100 is in Canadian dollars which equates to 5571 USD.

 

[Allan]

I don't know about other countries with universal healthcare but that is certainly not the case in Canada. There is nothing in place that controls healthcare for older/sicker patients. NOTHING

Correct. Doctors have the only say in patient/LTC resident care. There is no approval process for a doctor's treatment plan.

 

[calamity]

Correct. Doctors have the only say in patient/LTC resident care. There is no approval process for a doctor's treatment plan.

When it comes to swallowing Kool Aid sold by Fox news and other conservative outlets on the quality of US healthcare, the Right Wingers here are complete idiots. True statement.

 

[bave]

Obviously it plays a role.

Access to care, sure, no argument, but it is only one variable and I would say it isn't even close to the most heavily weighted variable.

Keep in mind, we have universal care for the elderly in the US.

Japan has UHC. Okinawa has excellent health care facilities - among the best in the world.

They also have no obesity and an excellent diet with a very lower healthcare usage.

Obesity is not unique to America. Some pacific islands (such as Samoa, Tonga) have higher obesity rates than the US, and yet have longer life expectancy.

They also have better diets and more active lifestyles. The problem in the US is we have morbid obesity driven by not just high calories but horrific calories and terrible activity. That drives spending through the roof and has a worse outcome.

I also think this ignore a basic point. Let's pretend for a moment the US mirrored Canada's healthcare system (which btw doesn't cover a lot of things our system does cover). What happens to global R&D? Do you think research continues at the same pace?

 

[Allan]

They also have better diets and more active lifestyles. The problem in the US is we have morbid obesity driven by not just high calories but horrific calories and terrible activity. That drives spending through the roof and has a worse outcome.

You're splitting hairs now.

I also think this ignore a basic point. Let's pretend for a moment the US mirrored Canada's healthcare system (which btw doesn't cover a lot of things our system does cover). What happens to global R&D? Do you think research continues at the same pace?

Germany, which has had UHC since 1883 is a very large player in healthcare research. In fact Germany has the world's largest pharmaceutical industry. The UK, Ireland and Switzerland are also big players. All have UHC.

As for Canada I could list many discoveries that originated from Canada within the UHC timeline.

 

[CaughtInThe]

That's $2000 a month for a family of 4.

 

[RabidAlpaca]

Actually, there is a ton of data to show that a huge portion of total healthcare spending in the US occurs at the end of life. It is also pretty clearly supported in data that countries with national systems have systems in place to limit care for older/sicker individuals.



Citation to support this? Last I checked the vast majority of joint replacements are covered under Medicare.

That which is claimed without evidence can be rejected without evidence. The vast majority of UHC countries have no process for denying care to older individuals. If the doctor wants to treat it, he can, and it will be paid for.

The US is ranked about 30th in healthcare, all factors considered, and the 29 countries ahead of us pay a small fraction what we do per capita.

You can't get past that fact no matter how much you lie, exaggerate and pretend.

 

[Callen]

Keep in mind, we have universal care for the elderly in the US.

As I understand it basic Medicare has restrictions on what it covers. It may be universal in terms of who it coves but not what it covers and how much it pays. I also understand that choice in healthcare providers is limited.

 

[bave]

You're splitting hairs now.

Germany, which has had UHC since 1883 is a very large player in healthcare research. In fact Germany has the world's largest pharmaceutical industry. The UK, Ireland and Switzerland are also big players. All have UHC.

As for Canada I could list many discoveries that originated from Canada within the UHC timeline.

If you think obesity and lifestyle are splitting hairs in healthcare outcomes you haven't studied the topic. Again, over 65 is UHC, so why are older people not living as long? It is obvious that their bodies are in poorer shape when they get there. The overall access and quality of care for a 65+ in the US is superior to anything in Canada. Medicare/advantage plans are damn near cost free, with broader coverages, with superior access with better formularies and yet the outcomes are worse. The only conclusion is that they are in worse overall health and no amount of medical intervention can correct that. The only argument you are left with is that the worse overall condition is because of a lack of UHC prior to 65, which I think is a tall order and would be interested in what you have to substantiate that position since it is evidently the argument you are making.

Foreign pharmaceutical and healthcare research is almost entirely dependent on the US market. Just look at basic phamaceutical sales figures industry wide. The US makes up ~23-26% of global sales on an annual basis, yet north of 80% of global profits. So, if suddenly that 80% of global profits drops to a proportional level you are going to see well over half the global profitability of R&D evaporate.

 

[bave]

That which is claimed without evidence can be rejected without evidence. The vast majority of UHC countries have no process for denying care to older individuals. If the doctor wants to treat it, he can, and it will be paid for.

The US is ranked about 30th in healthcare, all factors considered, and the 29 countries ahead of us pay a small fraction what we do per capita.

You can't get past that fact no matter how much you lie, exaggerate and pretend.

Yea, if you want to cite WHO statistics and how they weight those outcomes and how their put a massive thumb on the scale we can do that. When you do things like massively overweight the accessibility score and then limit out the infant/maternal mortality rates while ignoring the comorbidities you can get whatever result you want.

Your statement about treatment being covered universally at UHC states is a joke. Do some reading, hell, just start by looking at CABG and joint replacement rates in the UK.

As I understand it basic Medicare has restrictions on what it covers. It may be universal in terms of who it coves but not what it covers and how much it pays. I also understand that choice in healthcare providers is limited.

There are restriction on what it covers, but those restrictions are by far the most narrow I have seen in any system I have looked into and their formularies and accessibility are the best in the world hands down. I am unaware of any major medical facility that doesn't accept Medicare in the US.

 

[Callen]

The only argument you are left with is that the worse overall condition is because of a lack of UHC prior to 65, which I think is a tall order and would be interested in what you have to substantiate that position

That is the argument and it is well substantiated by the millions of Americans with no, or limited, access to affordable healthcare. Studies have shown that one of the contributors to the lower life expectancy numbers in the States is directly related to the lack of preventive and diagnostic services such as mammograms and colonoscopies. Additionaly, conditions such as hypertension and heart disease often goes undetected do to a lack of annual checkups and regular doctors appointments.

 

[smallvoice]

what a lame canard, seriously.
at my age I have had every medical condition imaginable and I HAVE NEVER needed U.S. medical care.
you don't like the information posted, fine, deal with it, don't come crying to me that I need first class medical treatment when I have had THAT all my life, without going broke or paying to some insurance company out for profit.
try a genuine argument next time, not a canard.

No, you haven't NEEDED first class medical care. If you had, you would have come here. Your doctors were probably trained here anyway. You needed normal, scratched toenail type care.

 

[calamity]

No, you haven't NEEDED first class medical care. If you had, you would have come here. Your doctors were probably trained here anyway. You needed normal, scratched toenail type care.

lol...life expectancy in Canada: 82. US: 79.

Fail less.

 

[bave]

That is the argument and it is well substantiated by the millions of Americans with no, or limited, access to affordable healthcare. Studies have shown that one of the contributors to the lower life expectancy numbers in the States is directly related to the lack of preventive and diagnostic services such as mammograms and colonoscopies. Additionaly, conditions such as hypertension and heart disease often goes undetected do to a lack of annual checkups and regular doctors appointments.

There are also a multitude of studies showing that when there is free care provided to Americans, with unlimited access and without restriction that none of these conditions or their overall health improved. The problem with your assumption is that you assume a few things...

1) People are unaware they have a health problem
2) People are unaware of the cause of their health problems
3) People are willing to make the necessary changes to address their health problems.

The classic example is morbid obesity. No matter how stupid someone is they know that being 400lbs is causing heart problems, diabetes risks, joint problems, cardio-pulmonary-vascular problems etc. You can send them to physicians all day long and it doesn't change the outcomes. If you get bored look up the 5-year Washington study where they gave a random cohort of thousands of people free healthcare, who previously had none, and tracked their health outcomes after five years.

Cliff notes: It was a disaster. Their usage went through the roof and the only improvement seen was in mental health.

 

[Callen]

No, you haven't NEEDED first class medical care. If you had, you would have come here. Your doctors were probably trained here anyway. You needed normal, scratched toenail type care.

That is a load of crap! We have some of the best hospitals and doctors in the world. Our doctors, like yours, are educated in Canada and all over the world. I have had a heart attack, stent placement and breast cancer. All treated by world class specialists. BTW my oncologist is an American who left the States to practice here because he couldn't stand to see patients go untreated because they didn't have insurance!

My niece had a massive brain hemorrhage at 11 years old and had to undergo three brain surgeries and almost a year of specialized therapies in a world-class children's hospital and convalescent hospital......by the way Sick Children's which is in Toronto treats many American kids for certain specialized procedures. My 82-year-old Aunt had ovarian cancer, surgery and chemo regardless of her age. I could give you an example after example but I sense there would be no point.

 

[bave]

Obesity is not unique to America. Some pacific islands (such as Samoa, Tonga) have higher obesity rates than the US, and yet have longer life expectancy.

As a follow up, Somoa has an obesity rate largely in line with that of the US, their life expectancy is 72.

This is a great example of a primary driver of life expectancy outcomes is obesity.