Would Europe be entirely different now if the two largest EU nations had not invaded Russia?

[Ginza]

You may know that I talked to a lot of people who lived in that times face to face?

So have I, as they were members of my immediate family.

My grandmothers first husband, who I obviously never met, died fighting the Germans in Belgium.

I have also looked on as another family member, now sadly passed away, was honoured by the people of Bonnay and Heilly, near Albert in France, who helped liberate their villages, and was looked after by local villagers for about a week after his Sherman tank was knocked out near Bonnay.

He was presented with a statue of De Gaulle by the mayor of Bonnay at a function at which the whole village attended as well as local press, radio and TV. The village of Bonnay has a statue of French civilians murdered by the Germans in their main square.

His regimental badge is shown to the left of this post.

So you are not unique in "having talked to a lot of people" who were involved in the conflict.

 

[Peter King]

OK, so you are now trying to backtrack and dig yourself out of a hole.

You didn't just state that the Germans used this as an excuse, you made the statement :

"Refusing to follow the orders was as good as a death penalty"

This is complete and utter nonsense.

There is no evidence that this excuse of yours has any validity :

Historian Doris Bergen :

"To this day no one has found an example of a German who was executed for refusing to take part in the killing of Jews or other civilians."

"Germans were not forced to be killers. Those who refused to participate were given other assignments or transferred."

"There were enough willing perpetrators"

Obeying Orders

Learn how the Nuremberg defendants' argued that German leaders were following orders when committing atrocities during the Holocaust.

www.facinghistory.org

Todesurteile gegen Wehrmacht-Soldaten​

Im Deutschen Reich ergingen während des Zweiten Weltkriegs mehr als 30.000 Todesurteile gegen Soldaten der Wehrmacht - wegen Fahnenflucht, Zersetzung der Wehkraft oder Befehlsverweigerung. Etwa 20.000 von ihnen wurden hingerichtet. Darüber hinaus verurteilten Wehrmachtrichter Tausende Wehrmacht-Angehörige, zivile Matrosen, Luftwaffenhelferinnen und ausländische Kriegsgefangenen zu teils langjährigen Gefängnis- und Zuchthausstrafen. Wehrmachtgerichte führten allein in Hamburg zwischen 65.000 und 90.000 Verfahren durch.

Death sentences against Wehrmacht soldiers.

In the German empire, during the second world war more than 30,000 death sentences were handed down against soldiers of the Wehrmacht for desertion, undermining military force or for refusing to follow orders. About 20,000 of those sentenced where executed. Besides the executing of Wehrmacht soldiers, many thousands of wehrmacht soldiers, civilian sailors, helpers of the airforce and foreign prisoners of war were brought for wehrmacht courts/judge, which sentenced some to long prison sentences. The wehrmacht courts in Hamburg had trials for between 65 and 90 thousand trials.

https://www.ndr.de/geschichte/chron...chten-Wehrmachtjustiz,wehrmachtjustiz100.html


Soldier Anton Schmidt saved Jewish people in Lithuania as a soldier of the wehrmacht, he refused his orders and helped Jews and he was tried by a military court and was sentenced and put to death.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Schmid

 

[Peter King]

So in one post you say the above, which is an obvious criticism of the allies......and in another say :



Why not read what you have posted previously before contradicting yourself so blatantly?

You do know the comment "in general" and what that means? And I stand with my comment that I criticize both the allies and the german authorities for not prosecuting SS monsters.

 

[Ginza]

Yet they had no problem teaming up with Germany in 1939 to carve up Poland. Then when British intelligence kept telling them that Hitler was massing troops on the border in 1941 they refused to believe that their good friend Adolph would do that.

Quite true.

Politicians were gullible in trusting the Germans.

None more so than Neville Chamberlain of Britain who, after a visit to Germany, assured the British people that there would be no war with Germany.

The assurances given to Chamberlain by the Germans were not worth the paper they were written on.

 

[uptower]

I dunno, Lenin and Stalin seemed to have a fetish for killing off their own people.

I believe that Russia is still far more traumatized by Stalin than Napoleon or Hitler.

Russia has yet to recover from the trauma of the Stalin era « World Politics 2018

sites.nd.edu

That’s an entirely air comment in light of recent history.

I guess there’s another two Russias as well: one that fears it’s leader’s intentions and with good reason, and one that never wants to be invaded and humiliated again, with good reason. They’re probably a Venn diagram at this point, with a fair overlap.

I can’t blame Russia, or China for that matter, for wanting to be strong enough never to be threatened again. Too many times in recent history, foreign powers have gazed upon them with acquisitive envy and then acted on it. It would be nice if they weren’t so acquisitive themselves as well.

 

[german hick]

So have I, as they were members of my immediate family.

My grandmothers first husband, who I obviously never met, died fighting the Germans in Belgium.

I have also looked on as another family member, now sadly passed away, was honoured by the people of Bonnay and Heilly, near Albert in France, who helped liberate their villages, and was looked after by local villagers for about a week after his Sherman tank was knocked out near Bonnay.

He was presented with a statue of De Gaulle by the mayor of Bonnay at a function at which the whole village attended as well as local press, radio and TV. The village of Bonnay has a statue of French civilians murdered by the Germans in their main square.

His regimental badge is shown to the left of this post.

So you are not unique in "having talked to a lot of people" who were involved in the conflict.

honorable people

but you may suggest they only met soldiers there and not the German population who "all supported Hitler" as you claim


my parents were born ´31 and ´38 - my dad was forced in the HJ as a child

 

[Ginza]

You do know the comment "in general" and what that means?

Yes. Probably better than you do.

And I find it quite amusing, in a perverse way, that in one post :

They did not even prosecute all the fascist monsters of the SS

Which is a blatant criticism of the allies.

And in another :

You mean me stating the obvious that in general only the leaders were prosecuted (as a rule) is criticizing the allies?

Which is obviously a claim that you are NOT being critical of the allies.

 

[Peter King]

Yes. Probably better than you do.

And I find it quite amusing, in a perverse way, that in one post :



Which is a blatant criticism of the allies.

And in another :



Which is obviously a claim that you are NOT being critical of the allies.

And your problem is that I criticize both the Allies and the Germans for not prosecuting war criminals of the SS aggressively. And that you dislike that, who really cares? Not me, that is who.

 

[joluoto]

When discussing counter factual arguments you always has to come to the conclusion: Of course everything would be different. You change one event and that event did not exist in a vaccuum. The butterflies will not be contain and changes would quickly start snowballing. Of course the world where Operation Barbarossa never happened (which would require Hitler not happening) or the Napoleonic Russian Campaign not happening would result in a world not recognizable by us.

 

[Nilhus]

Russian indoctrination is going strong
1. Stupid
2. too young to realize the horrors of the Stalin regime
3. stupid
4. indoctrinated
5. stupid
6. gullible

How do you know it's not the other way around? (that the West is indoctrinated and that those are the characteristics of those who believe the Western propaganda)
Have been around and accompanied Stalin when he allegedly committed the said "horrors"?
Or you just let yourself indoctrinated by "Western sources" who happen to be the enemies of Russia? Could enemies be credible and trusted as objective sources?

 

[swing_voter]

The two most traumatic events in Russian history were the invasions of their country by France and Germany. Tens of millions of their people died as a result of the unwarranted aggression of France and Germany. Can anyone blame Russia for distancing itself from Western Europe? Have France and German ever apologised for the horrendous loss of life and damage they caused in Russia?

I wouldn't say the invasions were the most traumatic events.

The Russian Revolution of 1918 was the most traumatic event.

.

 

[joluoto]

How do you know it's not the other way around? (that the West is indoctrinated and that those are the characteristics of those who believe the Western propaganda)
Have been around and accompanied Stalin when he allegedly committed the said "horrors"?
Or you just let yourself indoctrinated by "Western sources" who happen to be the enemies of Russia? Could enemies be credible and trusted as objective sources?

Even the Soviet sourves talk about the deaths caused, so it's not like it's just Western sources.

 

[AmNat]

They are held at bay by a paranoid government that fears it's citizenry as much as any foreign power.

That's why their last Presidential inauguration was held in secret behind a barbed wire fence with thousands of troops on guard. Because of how much their government fears its people . . .

 

[Ginza]

I wouldn't say the invasions were the most traumatic events.

The Russian Revolution of 1918 was the most traumatic event.
.

"Revolution, what revolution?"​

Revolution, what revolution? Russians show little interest in 1917 centenary

Results of revolution led by Lenin are criticised as ‘ambiguous’ by Putin in what is seen as an effort to downplay revolution as political tool

www.theguardian.com

Russians used to celebrate their Revolution. It was hardly considered a "traumatic" event but a positive one.

They still celebrate Victory Day as a non-working holiday. A day of celebration for their victory over Germany and a day of remembrance for the tens of millions of Russians who died during the German invasion of their country.

 

[Ginza]

And your problem is that I criticize both the Allies and the Germans for not prosecuting war criminals of the SS aggressively.

Not all all. I don't have a problem at all. As you very well know, I am querying your attempts to make excuses for the atrocities committed by the Germans such as they were just obeying orders.....or to quote you exactly "many just did as they were told".

This was the excuse made by Adolf Eichmann and many other Germans....and is now repeated by yourself.

I am surprised that anyone in this day and age makes excuses like this for crimes which I consider indefensible.

 

[Schrott]

I wouldn't say the invasions were the most traumatic events.

The Russian Revolution of 1918 was the most traumatic event.

.

And one could say Germany is responsible for it, giving Lenin free passage through Germany.

groeoeoeoeoeoeoeoeoehl

 

[Schrott]

This thread is all about Germany and France bashing, the current leaders of the EU, by a hard core brexiteer.

 

[Chagos]

This thread is all about Germany and France bashing, the current leaders of the EU, by a hard core brexiteer.

That's sure what it looks like, unless the thread starter is just generally confused.

The little Corsican and the corporal sure abused their EU membership.

 

[german hick]

That's sure what it looks like, unless the thread starter is just generally confused.

The little Corsican and the corporal sure abused their EU membership.

 

[Peter King]

Not all all. I don't have a problem at all. As you very well know, I am querying your attempts to make excuses for the atrocities committed by the Germans such as they were just obeying orders.....or to quote you exactly "many just did as they were told".

This was the excuse made by Adolf Eichmann and many other Germans....and is now repeated by yourself.

I am surprised that anyone in this day and age makes excuses like this for crimes which I consider indefensible.

Except I never said it was an excuse, they used it as an excuse, big difference.

And I do not make excuses, if you had properly read my posts I have stated that way more war crimes were committed than just the German ones, in this case by the Allies (mostly the Soviets) that were never punished.

 

[Ginza]

Except I never said it was an excuse

You don't have to. It is blatantly obvious.

You came up with the same excuse for German atrocities in WW2 that German war criminals came up with ie. "many just did as they were told".

It didn't work for them and many were executed or imprisoned, and it won't work now for you.

 

[Ginza]

The little Corsican and the corporal sure abused their EU membership.

Lol!

You're struggling.

This is about the long term effect of the invasion of Russia.

It's not that hard to understand.

 

[Ginza]

This thread is all about Germany and France bashing, the current leaders of the EU, by a hard core brexiteer.

So you believe that "the current leaders of the EU" were responsible for the invasions of Russia?

It would appear that your "thinking" is trapped solidly in some kind of time warp.

 

[Chagos]

Lol!

You're struggling.

This is about the long term effect of the invasion of Russia.

It's not that hard to understand.

For someone struggling right from the outset in intelligently titling what this thread is supposed to be about, you sure need to send your irony meter to the repair shop.​

​

".....................if the two largest EU nations had not invaded Russia?"​

 

[Chagos]

So you believe that "the current leaders of the EU" were responsible for the invasions of Russia?

It would appear that your "thinking" is trapped solidly in some kind of time warp.

So what's your excuse for such a silly thread title?