Would a $billion aid to earthquake victims buy US more security ?

[DeeJayH]

Did I say that? Ever? We helped Aghanistan get rid of the USSR to get at the USSR. Not to help the Afghanis.

and in doing them that huge favor did we get any love and respect out of it
of course not, which is why we will yield nothing in return for the absurd amount of aid we will send now, least of all from the terrorists

 

[DeeJayH]

Do you understand why Farmer Jones, Farmer Ted, and Farmer Bob all raced to Farmer Ed's house when he had a fire?

Did they do it out of the goodness of their hearts and concern for their fellow man? Maybe.

But they damn sure did it to make sure that when they had a fire that Ed would be there helping, too.

Those people don't do a damn thing for us, and there's no time like the present for people to learn that charity is a choice, not an obligation.

good example
cant wait to see the retort

 

[Kelzie]

Do you understand why Farmer Jones, Farmer Ted, and Farmer Bob all raced to Farmer Ed's house when he had a fire?

Did they do it out of the goodness of their hearts and concern for their fellow man? Maybe.

But they damn sure did it to make sure that when they had a fire that Ed would be there helping, too.

Those people don't do a damn thing for us, and there's no time like the present for people to learn that charity is a choice, not an obligation.

Farmers? A little strange...whatever. You think the Pakistan government is just sitting on their ass? They're doing what they can to help their people.

And are you saying that Pakistan, our main Middle Eastern ally in the war on terrorism doesn't do anything for us? How odd. Maybe you should inform President Bush so he can cut them loose.

And it is an obligation. Morally decent people are obligated to help those in danger of death. It's called a conscience. Heard of it?

 

[Kelzie]

and in doing them that huge favor did we get any love and respect out of it
of course not, which is why we will yield nothing in return for the absurd amount of aid we will send now, least of all from the terrorists

Do you know anything at all about the eathquake? Aghanistan lost like 400 people. They don't really need our help.

 

[DeeJayH]

And are you saying that Pakistan, our main Middle Eastern ally in the war on terrorism doesn't do anything for us? How odd. Maybe you should inform President Bush so he can cut them loose.

allies? barely
they are dragging their feet
Musharraf is dodging assassins bullets over his choice
a good part of his country is like the wild west, no rules no laws, a no mans land, which happens to be where UBL is hiding, in all likelihood.
If he was a real ally, he would notify the people in the NW area to evacuate, search them as they left, for terrorists
and than allow us to use Daisy Cutters to wipe out UBL
or maybe even some tactical nukes

 

[DeeJayH]

Do you know anything at all about the eathquake? Aghanistan lost like 400 people. They don't really need our help.

speaking in general about the region

 

[Kelzie]

allies? barely
they are dragging their feet
Musharraf is dodging assassins bullets over his choice
a good part of his country is like the wild west, no rules no laws, a no mans land, which happens to be where UBL is hiding, in all likelihood.
If he was a real ally, he would notify the people in the NW area to evacuate, search them as they left, for terrorists
and than allow us to use Daisy Cutters to wipe out UBL
or maybe even some tactical nukes

Are you serious? He won't let us nuke his country, so he's not our ally? :lol:

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Farmers? A little strange...whatever. You think the Pakistan government is just sitting on their ass? They're doing what they can to help their people.

And are you saying that Pakistan, our main Middle Eastern ally in the war on terrorism doesn't do anything for us? How odd. Maybe you should inform President Bush so he can cut them loose.

And it is an obligation. Morally decent people are obligated to help those in danger of death. It's called a conscience. Heard of it?

Farmers. People are always tossing out that old canard about how this country was founded on "people-helping-people" :blah:

The reality was that people helped each other and expected to get repaid in one way or another. Wanted help building a barn? You'd better be out there helping others build theirs. That's the way things really worked.

Now we're apparently caught in this endless charity trap, where no matter how much we help, we're expected to do even more next time, and it's not supposed to matter that the people we're "obligated" to help stab us in the back first chance they get.

"Morally decent"? What's that got to do with the real world? We're not talking about making the old man across the street a roast beef sandwich, we're talking about a recalcitrant nation half of which is helping our enemy. If that old man across the street poisoned my dog, I can guarantee you that he wouldn't be getting no sandwiches from me.

Myself, I'm more interested in letting the world find out that we don't need them but they can't say the same about us. How do we do that if we assume fake obligations?

 

[Kelzie]

Farmers. People are always tossing out that old canard about how this country was founded on "people-helping-people" :blah:

The reality was that people helped each other and expected to get repaid in one way or another. Wanted help building a barn? You'd better be out there helping others build theirs. That's the way things really worked.

Now we're apparently caught in this endless charity trap, where no matter how much we help, we're expected to do even more next time, and it's not supposed to matter that the people we're "obligated" to help stab us in the back first chance they get.

"Morally decent"? What's that got to do with the real world? We're not talking about making the old man across the street a roast beef sandwich, we're talking about a recalcitrant nation half of which is helping our enemy. If that old man across the street poisoned my dog, I can guarantee you that he wouldn't be getting no sandwiches from me.

Myself, I'm more interested in letting the world find out that we don't need them but they can't say the same about us. How do we do that if we assume fake obligations?

We're not talking about a god damn roast beef sandwich. We're talking about MILLIONS of people's lives. Millions. How can you possibly justify letting them die to prove some kind of point that they need us?

 

[DeeJayH]

We're not talking about a god damn roast beef sandwich. We're talking about MILLIONS of people's lives. Millions. How can you possibly justify letting them die to prove some kind of point that they need us?

because while the number of terrorists are small
there supporters are many more
and those who cheer at there barbaric actions are even more
it is the embedded culture that is such a problem
the good ole USofA is being flooded by mexicans, not muslims
the muslims here, for the most part are here for the top quality education they just cant get in their homeland

 

[Kelzie]

because while the number of terrorists are small
there supporters are many more
and those who cheer at there barbaric actions are even more
it is the embedded culture that is such a problem
the good ole USofA is being flooded by mexicans, not muslims
the muslims here, for the most part are here for the top quality education they just cant get in their homeland

So those millions of Muslims hate us. All the women, and children and elderly. All of them. And for that, we'll condemn them to death. Get real. You sound like the very terrorists you claim to hate.

 

[DeeJayH]

Are you serious? He won't let us nuke his country, so he's not our ally? :lol:

I am serious
I doubt anybody would let us nuke their own country, but daisy cutters should be welcomed with open arms
I never said he is not our ally
just he is barely an ally
he had to choose between two sides, and he chose the side that would win
not because he/pakistan love us, but because it was the smarter way to go for long term survival.

The war on terror would be alot more successful, if our so-called muslim/arab allies actually helped, actually infiltrated, actually did alot more than they are presently
they are doing as little as they have to, to stay on the good side of dubya
but no more than what is needed
Muslims could have prevented this
muslims could end this alot quicker

wheres the real help?

 

[jallman]

I'd rather be emotional and silly than heartless and cruel. You are talking about letting people die to get what you want. What does it matter how they die? Either way, you are the cause of it.

And the people of Pakistan are not our enemy. The terrorists are. You want to hurt a civilian population to hurt our enemy which is EXACTLY what the terrorists do.

35,000 dead is a boon? I thought people were being callous when they used the earthquake to poke fun at the other side. That's just wrong. Have you heard a girl's school collapsed and killed all 250 of them. Thank god for that, right? Good thing we have tragedies like that to stick it to the Muslims. They're all our enemy after all. Even the kids.

First of all, dear, I take no pleasure in the destruction wrought by this earthquake. However, as a pragmatist and a realist, I see that in the unfolding flames and chaos, there is a great opportunity to advance this war. If you strike the heart of the people, turn their basest needs for survival into a bargaining chip, then you can ensure their cooperation and even thier subjugation. I am not saying to take an active role in the deaths of civilians, however, there is something to be said for staying your hand until you are asked...and then require some collateral payment in return. In this case, it would be Al Quaedan heads. Undermine the people's confidence and will and you in turn undermine the government itself.

And let me remind you, we fought an oppressor for our freedom...and if all human beings truly are equal, then the people of the middle east can do the same. However, our boys are over there being killed every day to assist this region...I believe we have incurred enough good will and we are helping enough.

 

[DeeJayH]

So those millions of Muslims hate us. All the women, and children and elderly. All of them. And for that, we'll condemn them to death. Get real. You sound like the very terrorists you claim to hate.

you just love to hate, dont you
i was very careful to use quantifiers
you :spin:-ed it out to ALL , i did not

tsk tsk

I did not use most, much less all
put that in your pipe and smoke it :rock LOL

 

[DeeJayH]

First of all, dear, I take no pleasure in the destruction wrought by this earthquake. However, as a pragmatist and a realist, I see that in the unfolding flames and chaos, there is a great opportunity to advance this war. If you strike the heart of the people, turn their basest needs for survival into a bargaining chip, then you can ensure their cooperation and even thier subjugation. I am not saying to take an active role in the deaths of civilians, however, there is something to be said for staying your hand until you are asked...and then require some collateral payment in return. In this case, it would be Al Quaedan heads. Undermine the people's confidence and will and you in turn undermine the government itself.

And let me remind you, we fought an oppressor for our freedom...and if all human beings truly are equal, then the people of the middle east can do the same. However, our boys are over there being killed every day to assist this region...I believe we have incurred enough good will and we are helping enough.

can anybody name another nation that has done as much for Muslims in the 20th century, as the good ole USofA?

 

[Kelzie]

you just love to hate, dont you
i was very careful to use quantifiers
you :spin:-ed it out to ALL , i did not

tsk tsk

I did not use most, much less all
put that in your pipe and smoke it :rock LOL

Well that's even worse. You are willing to condemn millions of people to suffering because there might be some terrorist supporters in there? At least if you though all of them were sympathizers you were just ignorant. Now you're cruel.

And, by the way, also the same argument the terrorists use to bomb civilians. Might be some American supporters in there. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

 

[Kelzie]

First of all, dear, I take no pleasure in the destruction wrought by this earthquake. However, as a pragmatist and a realist, I see that in the unfolding flames and chaos, there is a great opportunity to advance this war. If you strike the heart of the people, turn their basest needs for survival into a bargaining chip, then you can ensure their cooperation and even thier subjugation. I am not saying to take an active role in the deaths of civilians, however, there is something to be said for staying your hand until you are asked...and then require some collateral payment in return. In this case, it would be Al Quaedan heads. Undermine the people's confidence and will and you in turn undermine the government itself.

And let me remind you, we fought an oppressor for our freedom...and if all human beings truly are equal, then the people of the middle east can do the same. However, our boys are over there being killed every day to assist this region...I believe we have incurred enough good will and we are helping enough.

So...let me get this straight. We let millions of people die until we have some terrorists. Despite the fact that the vast majority has nothing to do with terrorism.

When we threaten innocent civilians with the fear of death to make a politcal statement or to affect our enemy, that's what? Being pragmatic?

Some Islamists do the same thing and they're terrorists. Right. I gotcha. The ole double standard.

 

[jallman]

Unfortunately the real terrorist training camps consist of bedsits in England or anywhere they like really. You're F15's & B52's had little impact on Bin Laden's mob in Afganistan other than to make them flee to Pakistan. How will that stop them planning attacks on the west ?
Don't forget you rely on the Pakistani government's cooperation in the hunt for Bin Laden & his mindless sheep. A bit of aid just might help oil the wheels of that co operation.

And need you be reminded that the funding for those english bedsits or anywhere they like come from terrorist supporting governments and cultures. The middle east is a cess pool of hate, extremist philosophy, and general turmoil and it has been since biblical times. A bit of aid to pakistan will not help oil anything. It will be taken with a smile while they decide privately which vertebra to slide the dagger between. You can look to the past to predict the future and I see no redemption for any middle eastern government.

Please stop the big tough John Wayne posturing. Gy was abusive & effectively shouting angrily. Please don't threaten me if you want an intelligent conversation. Anyone can be unpleasant. It's not in the least bit clever. If the elephant/bee analogy belittles your country it's because it's true.
Besides it belittles your politicians & military strategists, not your country.

Okay, thats fair, politicians are fair game. Just make sure you are clear as to who you are making your belittling statements about. I am serious when I say I will tolerate not one slam against my country as a whole.

The obviously flawed nature of these insane extremist quasi religious ideas hardly need stating.

Obviously you needed to be reminded because you want to send them aid.

These people, these people... how many Muslims do you know ?
How many have you met to know how many hate you ?
How many villagers struggling to survive after an earthquake hate you ?
Al Quaeda is an infinitesimal number of Muslims.

Actually, all the muslims I know here in america are pretty good people, by and large. But we arent talking about your average muslim, now are we. We are talking about extremists in the middle east. And we are talking about a bed of vipers in the region that needs to be stamped out. And we are talking about governments who say they are committed to the war against terror, yet do little to help and thats when they are not quietly impeding our efforts. Sorry, its not just Al Quaeda we should be after...it should be toppling the entire region.

Good policy. We agree.. Intelligence is everything & can be bought. Intelligence also comes from & with endearment. I think we have come full circle. Perhaps you agree then, aid might not be such a bad idea & is far cheaper than smart bombs & F15's, though they do have their place, but when we speak of conflict with an ideology, it's also a battle for hearts & minds.

Yes, that is what I am saying. A fair trade...their intelligence in exchange for our aid. No need to bring a bomb when we can bring food...just be sure they understand what the food costs. It also doesnt hurt to have the bomb sitting in the background to ensure the fair exchange is met with the appropriate measure of respect.

 

[jallman]

So...let me get this straight. We let millions of people die until we have some terrorists. Despite the fact that the vast majority has nothing to do with terrorism.

When we threaten innocent civilians with the fear of death to make a politcal statement or to affect our enemy, that's what? Being pragmatic?

Some Islamists do the same thing and they're terrorists. Right. I gotcha. The ole double standard.

Okay okay...let me explain this one more time. There is no threat. There is an offer laid on the table...you assist us and we will assist you. Is that so hard to grasp...oh wait...I forgot...you are a socialist and I am a capitalist. This could get messy, babe. :shock:

 

[DeeJayH]

Well that's even worse. You are willing to condemn millions of people to suffering because there might be some terrorist supporters in there? At least if you though all of them were sympathizers you were just ignorant. Now you're cruel.

And, by the way, also the same argument the terrorists use to bomb civilians. Might be some American supporters in there. Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

*lights up*
*coughs*

tastes like crap
there government condemned them, not us
and our military is funded by our government, unlike the terrorists
your statement is flawed and as such :bomb::blastem:

i love all these smilies:mrgreen:

 

[jallman]

can anybody name another nation that has done as much for Muslims in the 20th century, as the good ole USofA?

For that matter, can anyone name another nation that has done as much to help the world as a whole?


:2usflag: :july_4th: :2usflag:

 

[Kelzie]

Okay okay...let me explain this one more time. There is no threat. There is an offer laid on the table...you assist us and we will assist you. Is that so hard to grasp...oh wait...I forgot...you are a socialist and I am a capitalist. This could get messy, babe. :shock:

So let me get this straight. We see a little boy drowning in a pond. We could save him, for sure. Easy. But no. We make him give us the laws of thermodynamics before we rescue him. Don't know it? To bad kiddo, you drown. That's a threat. We are promising them death if they don't give us what we want.

 

[Kelzie]

*lights up*
*coughs*

tastes like crap
there government condemned them, not us
and our military is funded by our government, unlike the terrorists
your statement is flawed and as such :bomb::blastem:

i love all these smilies:mrgreen:

I have no idea what you're saying. Or trying to say I guess. And by refusing aid when we could easily give it, we are just as responsible for their deaths as their government is.

Military funding? What? Price of tea in China? Who cares?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Look I feel sorry for them and all, well that's not true, I saw these freaking people cheering in the streets on 9-11, how much money did they offer us when Katrina hit, the question should be why the hell SHOULD we give them even a nickel?

 

[jallman]

So let me get this straight. We see a little boy drowning in a pond. We could save him, for sure. Easy. But no. We make him give us the laws of thermodynamics before we rescue him. Don't know it? To bad kiddo, you drown. That's a threat. We are promising them death if they don't give us what we want.

you made this one too easy, kelzie. First, ask yourself was the boy drowning in the pond part of a larger gang which threatens global security and second, is knowledge of the laws of thermodynamics key to uncovering the foundation of this global threat. If the answer to either is yes, or even a possible yes, then we at least let him flounder until his father standing on the bank is willing to assist in the cause. Then by all means, assist with everything you have. As long as there is ANY resistance, meet it with due force.