Would a $billion aid to earthquake victims buy US more security ?

[DeeJayH]

I agree with everything you've posted, Robin.

Spending money on war will never buy us peace.

We still have the hate schools, financed by Saudi Arabia, teaching the young to grow up hating the U.S. Until we break this cycle, we will never be rid of terrorism. We could spend 1/10th the money we are spending now on humanitarian efforts and get 10 times the results.

Exactly what have we gotten for all our billions spent on this war?

no more attacks on US soil yet

it would be nice if your fantasy was true
but there is nothing we can do to change the minds of fanatics
and i kind of see the point of letting the masses suffer so they turn on the people who are supposed to be protecting them.
we had to fight for our freedom, and now our 'oppressor' is our best ally2
maybe democracy & freedom can not be given, perhaps it has to be taking by force by those who want it.

 

[Kelzie]

I agree K. But carry it further. Their women are humans, but we shouldn't help them to be free? Why is it a good thing to help them in this but not with their every day oppression?

I do agree. However, I've been reading a lot of literature from feminist writers in the ME lately, and a lot of them want to win equality on their own, without any helping hand. A sentiment I can understand. Us forcing the government to grant women equality won't do much. These women are working to change the culture that endorses such oppression, which is something we can't do.

 

[jallman]

Let me get this straight. Orphans should be left in the freezing cold elements for weeks, with no food or water, or aid of any kind, in the hopes that the few people who know where the terrorists are will turn them over? So you are threatening innocent men, women, and children with their lives to get to your enemy. Now tell me. What seperates you from the terrorists?

All I am saying is this: If you have a hundred thousand fathers watching a hundred thousand children starving and freezing in the night...and you tell this hundred thousand fathers that the only thing standing between them and a warm bed and hot meal for their starving pups is the head of our enemy, I think you will find at least 90,000 new willing huntsmen. The remaining 10,000, it can be assumed, are fanatical sympathizers who would rather see their children starve, and so should be executed post haste.

And who said anything about threats? I made no mention of a threat, merely the exchange of a favor for a favor. What gives us the advantage in this parley is that their favor is much more needed and so they have no bargaining power.

 

[teacher]

I do agree. However, I've been reading a lot of literature from feminist writers in the ME lately, and a lot of them want to win equality on their own, without any helping hand. A sentiment I can understand. Us forcing the government to grant women equality won't do much. These women are working to change the culture that endorses such oppression, which is something we can't do.

I too can understand that. But what sort of chance would women have had in a Saddam ruled nation? How many, if any, of these women now feel such change is possible because they see that the women of Iraq and Afghanistan have such freedom? Like I harp on, Iraq and Afghanistan are shining bastions of freedom and democracy that the oppressed of the middle east can look to with hope. We started the snowball rolling. With out us having done what we did, IMHO these women wouldn't dare to consider such.

 

[Kelzie]

All I am saying is this: If you have a hundred thousand fathers watching a hundred thousand children starving and freezing in the night...and you tell this hundred thousand fathers that the only thing standing between them and a warm bed and hot meal for their starving pups is the head of our enemy, I think you will find at least 90,000 new willing huntsmen. The remaining 10,000, it can be assumed, are fanatical sympathizers who would rather see their children starve, and so should be executed post haste.

And who said anything about threats? I made no mention of a threat, merely the exchange of a favor for a favor. What gives us the advantage in this parley is that their favor is much more needed and so they have no bargaining power.

No. It is the exchange of their children's life for a favor. Also known as "we will let you and your loved ones die if you don't do what we want" also known as one screwed up way of showing that we're the good guys.

I mean why don't we just go all the way? Let's kidnap the damn kids and threaten them with being tortured to death unless their pops turn over the terrorists. Let's not wait for mother nature to do the job for us. You never know. Some other country might find that they have a heart and remove our bargaining power.

 

[Connecticutter]

I think we have to say that even though we'd like to help, we're dealing with our own problems right now, so that's what we have to focus on. It doesn't mean we can't help at all, but I think we want to see continued aid to the gulf region over the Middle East.

I don't think this will win anyone over from the terrorist side. You have to be 100% brainwashed anti-American to support the terrorists, and no amount of money will change that. They won't be swayed by a hundred trillion dollars. Even when we do give money, it will be condemned as too little, too late, as it always is.

Meanwhile, Osama Bin Laden will continue to claim that the hurricane was the result of God's punishment to the United States. I'm sure he'll come up with an explanation of how that Earthquake got there.

 

[jallman]

No. It is the exchange of their children's life for a favor. Also known as "we will let you and your loved ones die if you don't do what we want" also known as one screwed up way of showing that we're the good guys.

I mean why don't we just go all the way? Let's kidnap the damn kids and threaten them with being tortured to death unless their pops turn over the terrorists. Let's not wait for mother nature to do the job for us. You never know. Some other country might find that they have a heart and remove our bargaining power.

Now you are being emotional and silly. To take such an active role and attack the children ourselves would be to become like them. Kidnap children? Pfft. That is not our way. However, to stand by and do nothing is much more passive and it will also show the world as a whole what can happen to them should we decide not to be so generous when its their turn.

And further, I dont think its our responsibility to be the good guy anymore. The good guy got his twin towers blown up by his own planes. We are now knee deep in a war and I am sorry...I dont think you should extend a hand to assist your enemy. This disaster is a boon to our cause and to let it slip by, or even worse, repair it...that is just folly.

 

[Connecticutter]

However, I've been reading a lot of literature from feminist writers in the ME lately, and a lot of them want to win equality on their own, without any helping hand. A sentiment I can understand. Us forcing the government to grant women equality won't do much. These women are working to change the culture that endorses such oppression, which is something we can't do.

Interesting.

I know I might be oversimplifying here, but it sounds like the women of the Middle East that you read about are advocating the conservative view of change, which is a cultural change that leads to political change. The liberal view is usually that we implement a political change first, and the cultural change will follow.

Personally, I think that some of the Middle Eastern policies are so harsh that we need to demand their change now, but the conservative view has its merits when talking about a long term, "sustainable," change.

 

[teacher]

Don't forget the three ways the Koran says to deal with us infidels....

1.Convert.
2.Appease, go along with, agree publically while you continue to plot. In this case take our help with an outward smile while grinning inside how stupid we are to help our enemy.
3.Kill.

 

[robin]

I dont recall any discussion concerning suicide bombers in Madrid or London. I think we were referring to sympathizers of terrorist idealogies in earthquake affected areas. However, since you brought it up, yes, use those properly equipped F-15's and take out terrorist training camps. Take out suspected training camps at this point in the game. Take out anything that looks like it might double as a training camp on the weekends. We are at war, and this time its not against an army, its against an infectious doctrine of hate and destruction. We cant pull any punches.

Unfortunately the real terrorist training camps consist of bedsits in England or anywhere they like really. You're F15's & B52's had little impact on Bin Laden's mob in Afganistan other than to make them flee to Pakistan. How will that stop them planning attacks on the west ?
Don't forget you rely on the Pakistani government's cooperation in the hunt for Bin Laden & his mindless sheep. A bit of aid just might help oil the wheels of that co operation.

I am more than willing to discuss this with you, and at length. However, start belittling me or my country the way you did GySgt, and you will find I am not the most pleasant person to verbally spar with...are we clear?

Please stop the big tough John Wayne posturing. Gy was abusive & effectively shouting angrily. Please don't threaten me if you want an intelligent conversation. Anyone can be unpleasant. It's not in the least bit clever. If the elephant/bee analogy belittles your country it's because it's true.
Besides it belittles your politicians & military strategists, not your country.

I am not sure where you are going with this analogy nor do I really care. I know how to spot a failed plan when I see one, and 9-11 is proof positive that appeasement and pandering to these barbaric idealogies, built on the concept that if you kill enough infidels you get more virgins, is not going to work.

The obviously flawed nature of these insane extremist quasi religious ideas hardly need stating.

These people hate...they hate us and they hate eachother. America has long acted as the watchdog of the globe, policing every instance where the UN did not have the backbone to stand together and do something. I think it is high time we stop being the UN's guard dog and we make the UN our lapdog. We have shown the world compassion and love and what did we get? Two craters where the world trade center was. Thats what we got.

These people, these people... how many Muslims do you know ?
How many have you met to know how many hate you ?
How many villagers struggling to survive after an earthquake hate you ?
Al Quaeda is an infinitesimal number of Muslims.

And now, you wish to send these people more money? More aid? I'll tell you what...you want to send aid, and I want to see the destruction of every terrorist training camp in the middle east. Here is a money saving solution: They give us all intelligence on Bin Laden's whereabouts along with disclosing the location of every terrorist training camp and we will rebuild every mud hut in the affected region. Hey, lets throw in a few goat herds to boot. I am a fair and generous man. Its a fair trade. But I think giving with no return should no longer be American policy when it comes to the Middle East.

Good policy. We agree.. Intelligence is everything & can be bought. Intelligence also comes from & with endearment. I think we have come full circle. Perhaps you agree then, aid might not be such a bad idea & is far cheaper than smart bombs & F15's, though they do have their place, but when we speak of conflict with an ideology, it's also a battle for hearts & minds.

 

[Kelzie]

Now you are being emotional and silly. To take such an active role and attack the children ourselves would be to become like them. Kidnap children? Pfft. That is not our way. However, to stand by and do nothing is much more passive and it will also show the world as a whole what can happen to them should we decide not to be so generous when its their turn.

And further, I dont think its our responsibility to be the good guy anymore. The good guy got his twin towers blown up by his own planes. We are now knee deep in a war and I am sorry...I dont think you should extend a hand to assist your enemy. This disaster is a boon to our cause and to let it slip by, or even worse, repair it...that is just folly.

I'd rather be emotional and silly than heartless and cruel. You are talking about letting people die to get what you want. What does it matter how they die? Either way, you are the cause of it.

And the people of Pakistan are not our enemy. The terrorists are. You want to hurt a civilian population to hurt our enemy which is EXACTLY what the terrorists do.

35,000 dead is a boon? I thought people were being callous when they used the earthquake to poke fun at the other side. That's just wrong. Have you heard a girl's school collapsed and killed all 250 of them. Thank god for that, right? Good thing we have tragedies like that to stick it to the Muslims. They're all our enemy after all. Even the kids.

 

[Kelzie]

Interesting.

I know I might be oversimplifying here, but it sounds like the women of the Middle East that you read about are advocating the conservative view of change, which is a cultural change that leads to political change. The liberal view is usually that we implement a political change first, and the cultural change will follow.

Personally, I think that some of the Middle Eastern policies are so harsh that we need to demand their change now, but the conservative view has its merits when talking about a long term, "sustainable," change.

It's really all about long term change right now. A lot of these Middle Eastern countries have equality for women in their constitution. Some elements of the society are just so opposed it doesn't matter. That's why some women are in high positions of power. It's legal, it's just most women can't because their family holds them back. Least, that's how I hear it. A couple of books aren't the say all and end all on the subject.

 

[robin]

Then you now have orphans ripe to be picked by terrorist organizations for suicide bombing missions. I agree that they are human beings and deserving of our compassion...if we werent at war with their leaders. Let the people go hungry and let them feel the elements on their backs. Let them spend a few weeks suffering in cold and shelterless nights and I am sure the people themselves will be ready to hand over any terrorists and their supporters. At that point, we give them aid.

You are very wrong indeed. You are not at war with their leaders. Prime minister Shaukat Aziz & the government of Pakistan are helping in the hunt for Bin Laden.
You label all Muslims as if they are all supporters of Al Quaeda.
That's as wrong as saying saying all Americans support the KKK !

And the people of Pakistan are not our enemy. The terrorists are. You want to hurt a civilian population to hurt our enemy which is EXACTLY what the terrorists do.

Well said.... how true :smile:
Incidently I hope you don't include me as one who thinks aid should only be given to gain favour. I may be pointing out that it will generate good will in the Muslim world, but my main reason to want to see them get aid is for humanitarian reasons.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Oh sure. We had entirely altruistic motives for helping the Islamic fundamentalists kick the USSR out of Afghanistans. Only the purest intentions in our heart. It's not like we encouraged it or anything. :roll:

No. We didn't encourage the Russians to invade Afghanland. They did that on their own. Nor did we tell Gorby to expand the war and do things like make C4 toys for the Afghan kiddies. He got a Nobel Peace Prize for that trick.

All we did was pick the side Russia was trying to squash and help. Certainly we did it for our own motives. It bled Russia dry, and their winning would have been a strategic disaster for the region, and that would include our interests also.

Is there some reason why good deeds should count less when they're parallel to one's best interests?

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

The cost of an F15 would provide tents for thousands of freezing victims. You prefer instead to continue the cycle of hatred. You generalise when you refer to all Muslims as if they are 'pro terrorist'. Only a tiny minority are.
As in the states only a tiny minority are in the KKK or like Timothy Mac Vay. That minority of bad Muslims would be even tinnier if the USA spent a little more on aid & a little less on killing machines, I promise you.

Saudi Arabia is one of the richest countries in the world. Certainly they can afford to do all that is needed for their muslim brothers. Since the muslims spit on us, let 'em dig themselves out.

I'm getting tired of the contant begging from people that don't have the decency to be truly thankful. I don't know them, and I won't miss them. Is that too difficult to understand?

Mind, I'm talking official government action. What private citizens choose to do with their money is of no concern to me. And I'm betting that unless America is catastrophe-weary, and for the first time we may very well be, we'll scrape up more private donations for that earthquake than any other country in the world.

 

[Kelzie]

No. We didn't encourage the Russians to invade Afghanland. They did that on their own. Nor did we tell Gorby to expand the war and do things like make C4 toys for the Afghan kiddies. He got a Nobel Peace Prize for that trick.

All we did was pick the side Russia was trying to squash and help. Certainly we did it for our own motives. It bled Russia dry, and their winning would have been a strategic disaster for the region, and that would include our interests also.

Is there some reason why good deeds should count less when they're parallel to one's best interests?

You made it sound like they begged on hands and knees for our help. If anything, we encouraged them to fight Russia.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Am I the only one who thinks we should be giving these people aid because they are human beings that are trapped in the middle of winter with no homes? Let me restate: HUMANS! As in the same species as us. As in men, women, children...brothers and sisters and aunts and fathers. Toddlers people! And you are saying what? Let them freeze? Let them die because a couple if them might know where OBL is? That's sick. You are holding the threat of death over hundreds of thousands of people...millions really, because their leaders are corrupt and would rather spend money on weapons than on social programs. Maybe we shouldn't give them aid only if it will help our security. Maybe we should give them aid even if it won't help our security. Hell, we should give them aid even if it will harm our security. These are children who have just lost their parents, parents who have just lost their little girl. They're not the enemy.

Let's see....did the Pakistani government NOT know that the Indian tectonic plate was still moving north, even though the Asian plate was in the way? Did they ever figure out where those mountains came from and how? Have they never had an earthquake before in that region? Was the Pakistani government chin deep in poverty, or did THAT government have enough money to build nuclear weapons?

Before you start bitchin' about America's priorities, start hammering the Pakistani government for building nuclear weapons. The people over there are PAKISTANI people whom the government allegedly has a responsibility to coddle. DON'T blame the United States because we're tired of all the back-stabbing and hypocrisy the nations of the world serve up to us, blame the Paks because it was their wasted weapons program that prevented them from upgrading to modern earthquake standards.

Needless to say, one of America's most densely populated cities got hit with a 7.5 quake. For some reason, 30,000 people didn't die, and no one sent any billions of dollars to help, either.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

You made it sound like they begged on hands and knees for our help. If anything, we encouraged them to fight Russia.

No. They were fighting Russia already. That country has a long history of repelling interference, from India, from Britain, and from Russia. When the commies rigged the elections and set up a puppet regime in Kabul, the outlying areas rebelled on their own. They didn't need encouragement.

And what're you saying, that they should have laid down and become slaves for the invading red hordes? I don't see you advocating that course of action for the murdering insurgency in Iraq. The Afghanis that chose to fight needed assistance and we were one of their suppliers.

When Russia finally collapsed, we decided to let Afghanistan find it's own way, and that's what they wanted us to do. That they went the wrong way is just a simple condemnation of Islam.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

Spending money on war will never buy us peace.

How trite.

How compact.

Very touching.

How pointless.

We've had peace with Japan for 60 years.

We've had peace with Germany for 60 years.

We've had peace in the Korean peninsula for 50 years.

We've always had peace with the Soviet Union, at least directly.

Clearly, money for war can buy peace.

 

[DeeJayH]

How trite.

How compact.

Very touching.

How pointless.

We've had peace with Japan for 60 years.

We've had peace with Germany for 60 years.

We've had peace in the Korean peninsula for 50 years.

We've always had peace with the Soviet Union, at least directly.

Clearly, money for war can buy peace.

MAD
Mutually
Assured
Destruction

a stronger military is the only thing that keeps another military from attacking
it is certainly not going to change in our lifetimes

 

[DeeJayH]

You made it sound like they begged on hands and knees for our help. If anything, we encouraged them to fight Russia.

:2rofll: too funny, we can only help those who beg? i dont hear the earthquake victims begging on hands and knees, guess we can wait on sending aid

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

MAD
Mutually
Assured
Destruction

a stronger military is the only thing that keeps another military from attacking
it is certainly not going to change in our lifetimes

I wish they'd invest those billions that would be wasted in Pakistan on strategic defense. I prefer TAD to MAD (Their Assured Destruction).

 

[Kelzie]

Let's see....did the Pakistani government NOT know that the Indian tectonic plate was still moving north, even though the Asian plate was in the way? Did they ever figure out where those mountains came from and how? Have they never had an earthquake before in that region? Was the Pakistani government chin deep in poverty, or did THAT government have enough money to build nuclear weapons?

Before you start bitchin' about America's priorities, start hammering the Pakistani government for building nuclear weapons. The people over there are PAKISTANI people whom the government allegedly has a responsibility to coddle. DON'T blame the United States because we're tired of all the back-stabbing and hypocrisy the nations of the world serve up to us, blame the Paks because it was their wasted weapons program that prevented them from upgrading to modern earthquake standards.

Needless to say, one of America's most densely populated cities got hit with a 7.5 quake. For some reason, 30,000 people didn't die, and no one sent any billions of dollars to help, either.

Let's let millions of people suffer and die for their governments screwed up priorities! Brilliant!

And why would countries send help if we don't need it? That makes no sense. Although, I suppose you making no sense is preferable to your obviously deranged value of other people's lives.

 

[Kelzie]

:2rofll: too funny, we can only help those who beg? i dont hear the earthquake victims begging on hands and knees, guess we can wait on sending aid

Did I say that? Ever? We helped Aghanistan get rid of the USSR to get at the USSR. Not to help the Afghanis.

 

[Scarecrow Akhbar]

And why would countries send help if we don't need it?

Do you understand why Farmer Jones, Farmer Ted, and Farmer Bob all raced to Farmer Ed's house when he had a fire?

Did they do it out of the goodness of their hearts and concern for their fellow man? Maybe.

But they damn sure did it to make sure that when they had a fire that Ed would be there helping, too.

Those people don't do a damn thing for us, and there's no time like the present for people to learn that charity is a choice, not an obligation.