Witnesses report shooting at Quebec City Mosque [W:42]

[Pureinheart]

I think the story of the 'lone shooter' is suspect. First it's three, then it's two, now it's one AND it just so happens that he's a 'white supremacist Trump supporter'... nah, that's just too convenient given Canada via Trump stands to lose 80% of it's exports- exported to HERE. I hear riots are going on over in Canada and the world- they HATE America being first and taking care of our own. Canada and many other countries are almost completely dependent on the US.

 

[VanceMack]

terrorism requires some political goal

And for the most part angry white nutjobs have no goal and no organization working with them

The San Bernardino shooter wasnt trying to accomplish a political goal. It was still terrorism. So is this.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Deranged can also mean disturbed or unstable. Do you think its normal to kill outside a war zone for reasons other than self defence/defence of others?
Personally I dont, hence this guy was deranged IMHO.

It's a matter whether the person is mentally fit to stand trial, isn't it?
They don't waste time trying to determine that for nothing, do they?

 

[Mac77]

The San Bernardino shooter wasnt trying to accomplish a political goal. It was still terrorism. So is this.

Islam is political as well as religious

He and his immigrant wife were trained and assisted by an international organization

Something dylan roof did not have

 

[JasperL]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Deranged can also mean disturbed or unstable. Do you think its normal to kill outside a war zone for reasons other than self defence/defence of others?
Personally I dont, hence this guy was deranged IMHO.

It's not "normal" perhaps, but there are all kinds of rational reasons to kill someone other than the reasons you suggest, starting with the obvious - money, power, revenge.

 

[JasperL]

terrorism requires some political goal

And for the most part angry white nutjobs have no goal and no organization working with them

That's not really true. The murders of abortion doctors, for example, is terrorism and they have a clear political goal. It doesn't matter that there are no anti-abortion groups advocating for murdering doctors. A "white nutjob" shot up a local Unitarian church a few years ago and he told us his political goal - to kill liberals, the "foot soldiers," because he wasn't able to kill the "generals." And in this case, how can you say shooting up a mosque doesn't have a political goal behind it - to make Canada unwelcome for Muslims, to instill fear in the Muslim population, etc.?

All you're really doing is starting with the conclusion you want - Muslims are terrorists, white guys aren't - then coming up with your own definition to support the premise.

 

[Quag]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

It's not "normal" perhaps, but there are all kinds of rational reasons to kill someone other than the reasons you suggest, starting with the obvious - money, power, revenge.

None of those are rational, they are reasons/excuses people use but not rational ones

 

[Mac77]

That's not really true.

The murders of abortion doctors, for example, is terrorism and they have a clear political goal.

It doesn't matter that there are no anti-abortion groups advocating for murdering doctors. A "white nutjob" shot up a local Unitarian church a few years ago and he told us his political goal - to kill liberals, the "foot soldiers," because he wasn't able to kill the "generals." And in this case, how can you say shooting up a mosque doesn't have a political goal behind it - to make Canada unwelcome for Muslims, to instill fear in the Muslim population, etc.?

All you're really doing is starting with the conclusion you want - Muslims are terrorists, white guys aren't - then coming up with your own definition to support the premise.

yes I agree

if you turn back to earlier posts I have already pointed that out

but comparing roof to a worldwide movement like radical islam is misleading

Its like equating a single cell organism to a human being

 

[Quag]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

It's a matter whether the person is mentally fit to stand trial, isn't it?


They don't waste time trying to determine that for nothing, do they?

Someone can be considered mentally fit to stand trial and still be deranged.
You never answered my question:
Do you think its normal to kill outside a war zone for reasons other than self defence/defence of others?
Personally I dont, hence this guy was deranged IMHO.

 

[tosca1]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

They don't waste time trying to determine that for nothing, do they?

Someone can be considered mentally fit to stand trial and still be deranged.
You never answered my question:
Do you think its normal to kill outside a war zone for reasons other than self defence/defence of others?
Personally I dont, hence this guy was deranged IMHO.[/QUOTE]



I think I see what you mean.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

None of those are rational, they are reasons/excuses people use but not rational ones

Of course they are "rational" (or can be and often clearly ARE) and killing for those reasons and others is literally as old as mankind.

The simplest example in the world are rival drug dealers killing each other. It's the best way to get rid of a competitor, seize their market, acquire more money, then power. Nothing irrational about it, although perhaps not an optimal strategy for living a long life. Nations have gone to war for thousands of years for similar reasons.

 

[Quag]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Of course they are "rational" (or can be and often clearly ARE) and killing for those reasons and others is literally as old as mankind.

The simplest example in the world are rival drug dealers killing each other. It's the best way to get rid of a competitor, seize their market, acquire more money, then power. Nothing irrational about it, although perhaps not an optimal strategy for living a long life. Nations have gone to war for thousands of years for similar reasons.

You think it is normal to kill someone for money?

 

[JasperL]

yes I agree

if you turn back to earlier posts I have already pointed that out

but comparing roof to a worldwide movement like radical islam is misleading

Its like equating a single cell organism to a human being

But Roof didn't form his views in a vacuum either, and neither did the local guy who shot up the Unitarian church. They were acting on their political beliefs. Roof told us he wanted to start a race war, presumably to end with segregation. He has all kinds of online sources to reinforce those opinions. The guy who shot up the church cited books by well known right wing flame throwers as his motivation, and his goals were explicitly political - to kill/eradicate liberals who ruining this great country, and he wanted to bring others into the fight. That was in his suicide note (although he wasn't killed).

So, no, I don't think it's misleading, although any efforts to claim that the movements are similar in size or explicit goals is wrong. But Roof is a terrorist, period. There is no other way to describe what he did except a deliberate act of violence to achieve some political goal. That's what he told us was his purpose!

 

[JasperL]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

You think it is normal to kill someone for money?

I have no way to evaluate "normal." It happens in every region of every part of the world and (at least nearly) every culture and has for all of human existence, so in that sense it's not abnormal. What would be abnormal is any society in which no one kills for money/power. I can't name one in all of human history, can you?

Besides, what I'm explaining is that murder is often RATIONAL. And it is - the murderer has a goal, and killing someone else simply IS, often, the most efficient means to achieve that goal. There is simply nothing IRRATIONAL about that.

 

[Quag]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

I have no way to evaluate "normal." It happens in every region of every part of the world and (at least nearly) every culture and has for all of human existence, so in that sense it's not abnormal. What would be abnormal is any society in which no one kills for money/power. I can't name one in all of human history, can you?

Besides, what I'm explaining is that murder is often RATIONAL. And it is - the murderer has a goal, and killing someone else simply IS, often, the most efficient means to achieve that goal. There is simply nothing IRRATIONAL about that.

Most murderers have a goal even terrorists, I am saying the act is a deranged.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Most murderers have a goal even terrorists, I am saying the act is a deranged.

deranged: mad;insane.

An act cannot be both rational and deranged, and it's just self evident that many/most/vast majority all murders are in fact rational acts - the act of murder just IS an efficient way to achieve some goal important to the murderer.

You can disagree if you want, but ALL of recorded human history tells us otherwise.

 

[Quag]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

deranged: mad;insane.

An act cannot be both rational and deranged,

Agreed

and it's just self evident that many/most/vast majority all murders are in fact rational acts - the act of murder just IS an efficient way to achieve some goal important to the murderer.

Strongly disagree
What is the difference between a terrorist blowing up a plane and a cartel member cutting off a rival gang members head or mugger stabbing someoen for his wallet? All have reasons all are deranged.

You can disagree if you want, but ALL of recorded human history tells us otherwise.

No it doesnt. All that history tells that humans murdering humans is far to common.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Agreed


Strongly disagree
What is the difference between a terrorist blowing up a plane and a cartel member cutting off a rival gang members head

Well, let's just stick with that example. What is irrational about doing that? Presumably the cartel kingpin wants to keep or expand his territory/market/wealth power, and there is nothing irrational about killing a competitor. The act objectively advances the kingpin's goals of power, etc. What could be a more effective way to deliver a message - "compete with me, cut in on my territory, and I'll cut off your head and deliver it to your wife in a bag." Seems like it would be pretty effective to me...

 

[Quag]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

Well, let's just stick with that example. What is irrational about doing that? Presumably the cartel kingpin wants to keep or expand his territory/market/wealth power, and there is nothing irrational about killing a competitor. The act objectively advances the kingpin's goals of power, etc. What could be a more effective way to deliver a message - "compete with me, cut in on my territory, and I'll cut off your head and deliver it to your wife in a bag." Seems like it would be pretty effective to me...

You are trying rationalizing a deranged act
Using the same logic: what is irrational about a guy raping a girl he wants that doesnt want him?
What is irrational about a mugger stabbing someone for his wallet?
What is irrational about an anti-semite killing a jew?
What is irrational about a guy, who takes pelasure in seeing others die, killing someone?
In all these cases, as with yours someone is taking actions based on what they want.

 

[JasperL]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

You are trying rationalizing a deranged act
Using the same logic: what is irrational about a guy raping a girl he wants that doesnt want him?
What is irrational about a mugger stabbing someone for his wallet?
What is irrational about an anti-semite killing a jew?
What is irrational about a guy, who takes pelasure in seeing others die, killing someone?
In all these cases, as with yours someone is taking actions based on what they want.

We have a fundamentally different notion of what "deranged" means. I just do not believe that a person identifying a goal, then killing another person to accomplish it, meets the definition.

 

[Quag]

Re: Shooting at Quebec City Mosque

We have a fundamentally different notion of what "deranged" means. I just do not believe that a person identifying a goal, then killing another person to accomplish it, meets the definition.

Apparently we do

 

[Aristaeus]

When the MSM is saying one thing and alternative information sources are saying a different thing it's best to go with alterative news.

Were there WMD's in Iraq? No, and if more people had perused alternative information sources then there wouldn't have been any support to go into Iraq. I know that you get your talking points from the DNC, but do try to keep up.

Do I know how information is gathered? If it's the MSM then they just make it up whole cloth or get their info handed to them from the DNC. I'll take a pass on blindly believing them.

Hey Reino, did you ever apologise/admit you got this totally wrong?