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Witness account to the beatings of Israeli soldiers

alexa said:
That is disputed.
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not its not.

As for Avnery's column. Well he has many good questions, the commitie will certinly ask those questions, The fact that the commity's result do not obligy legaly doesn't mean they can't find the truth, and believe me, if they will find flaws in the way the goverment acted our media will celebrate two weeks of high rating charts where they will squeeze every last drop of the report. Why is this commity lacking such power, well I can think of 2 reasons, one the goverment has to cover its own ass and are afraid of deheading. 2nd reason is that Bibi has to come out strong to the Israeli public, he is the great leader who didn't allow military personal to be inquired. Bibi is a master when it comes to coming out strong in the israeli public when he is cornered by the world, he has to do it for his political survival.

Here he must appoint an inquery but god forbids can not be seen as a PM who was bent by pressure of the world so he comes up with an idiotic principle like "military personal will not be investigated" and he stand firmly and insists on it and at the end he doesn't come out as the PM who appointed an inquery but as a PM who managed to keep the military out of the inquery....

Same goes for freezing of settlments, a right wing PM who freezes settlments, its unheard of and Bibi cannot be seen as a PM who freezes settlments from one hand but he must do so because of US pressure from the other hand. And so, Bibi comes up with a briliant idea "Jerusalem will not be included", the average right wing Israeli will say (I'm not talking about settlers, average people) "Ah! Jerusalem is not included, Bibi is the best, he insisted Jerusalem will not be included and the US approved, what a great leader". But basically he froze ALL of the west bank development, I tell you, this man is a master when it comes to wining the Israeli PO, even though the things he insists on are minor.
 
ido_ said:
not its not.
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The op video of this thread disputes it.

ido_ said:
As for Avnery's column. Well he has many good questions, the commitie will certinly ask those questions, The fact that the commity's result do not obligy legaly doesn't mean they can't find the truth, and believe me, if they will find flaws in the way the goverment acted our media will celebrate two weeks of high rating charts where they will squeeze every last drop of the report. Why is this commity lacking such power, well I can think of 2 reasons, one the goverment has to cover its own ass and are afraid of deheading. 2nd reason is that Bibi has to come out strong to the Israeli public, he is the great leader who didn't allow military personal to be inquired. Bibi is a master when it comes to coming out strong in the israeli public when he is cornered by the world, he has to do it for his political survival.

Here he must appoint an inquery but god forbids can not be seen as a PM who was bent by pressure of the world so he comes up with an idiotic principle like "military personal will not be investigated" and he stand firmly and insists on it and at the end he doesn't come out as the PM who appointed an inquery but as a PM who managed to keep the military out of the inquery....

Same goes for freezing of settlments, a right wing PM who freezes settlments, its unheard of and Bibi cannot be seen as a PM who freezes settlments from one hand but he must do so because of US pressure from the other hand. And so, Bibi comes up with a briliant idea "Jerusalem will not be included", the average right wing Israeli will say (I'm not talking about settlers, average people) "Ah! Jerusalem is not included, Bibi is the best, he insisted Jerusalem will not be included and the US approved, what a great leader". But basically he froze ALL of the west bank development, I tell you, this man is a master when it comes to wining the Israeli PO, even though the things he insists on are minor.
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I am aware that Israel and the Palestinians both seem to be in a saving face scenerio a lot of the time. I agree Avnery does make a lot of good points. He misses out one or two I have thought of, puts in a lot I have and adds a lot I hadn't. Being inside Israel, he is seeing it from Israel's position.

It is however a great pity that Israel stopped the ships from being able to communciate their footage to the outside world. If Israel does have nothing to hide this was an own goal.

I do not have the same positive beliefs about the independence of the inquiry for reasons which have already been well documented and a whole lot of that comes from the fact that the inquiry is not looking into the planning. Trust me, if our Navy tried to ram a boat of International Peace Protestors as the Challenger 1 was, the people of the UK would be shouting. Likewise with the MM. We just live in different worlds.

Anyway, thanks for the chat, I am leaving this unless/until something new come up. All countries make mistakes and I still think this was a mistake. Most of us have a heck of a time getting the truth out. ;)
 
alexa said:
I am aware that Israel and the Palestinians both seem to be in a saving face scenerio a lot of the time. I agree Avnery does make a lot of good points. He misses out one or two I have thought of, puts in a lot I have and adds a lot I hadn't. Being inside Israel, he is seeing it from Israel's position.
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Only one thing in dispute here, Avnery NEVER looks at it from the Israeli side, if it was up to Avnery Israel will cease to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people, I never even once heard Avnery speak about Sderot for example, he is like an Al-Jazirrah journalist who happens to be Israeli Jew.
 
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ido_ said:
Only one thing in dispute here, Avnery NEVER looks at it from the Israeli side, if it was up to Avnery Israel will cease to exist as the homeland of the Jewish people, I never even once heard Avnery speak about Sderot for example, he is like an Al-Jazirrah journalist who happens to be Israeli Jew.
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and, of course, that is what makes him a star. Like Shahak, Finklestein and others, the fact he is Jewish provides those who hate Jews the opportunity to promote the viewpoints while attemting to escape the accurate portrayal of their views as antisemitic. Just look at how the leftist antisemites promote the Neturie Karta, for goodness sake. It's just all part of a very predictable dance they undertake that might as well be scripted it is so formulaic in nature.
 
Why is this commission even being discussed when we just had massive pogroms with thousands of Uzbeks murdered? And what was the UN fact-finding committee's final report on the Georgia war/massacre initiated by Russia? Or the one that looked into the Hamas attack on the girl's school girl/camp a few weeks ago?

Oh, that's right - there weren't any - no jew involved, rigggghhhhhtt....
 
Gardener said:
and, of course, that is what makes him a star. Like Shahak, Finklestein and others, the fact he is Jewish provides those who hate Jews the opportunity to promote the viewpoints while attemting to escape the accurate portrayal of their views as antisemitic. Just look at how the leftist antisemites promote the Neturie Karta, for goodness sake. It's just all part of a very predictable dance they undertake that might as well be scripted it is so formulaic in nature.
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I just bring up Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali when the islamic fascists bring up neutered kartei and finkelstein, both of whom will burn in hell for a very long time. The fascists then get VERY quiet...
 
joergan said:
Why is this commission even being discussed when we just had massive pogroms with thousands of Uzbeks murdered? And what was the UN fact-finding committee's final report on the Georgia war/massacre initiated by Russia? Or the one that looked into the Hamas attack on the girl's school girl/camp a few weeks ago?

Oh, that's right - there weren't any - no jew involved, rigggghhhhhtt....
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Let's not forget our president. He was very concerned when 9 people were killed by Israelies defending themselves. When others butcher thousands there is a resounding silence. I heard today that his chief of staff is looking to leave at year end. Probably tired of trying to defend Obama's actions.
 
Listen, Bibi == retarded dumbass asshole anti democratic freak of a person

and if I didn't respecect people's democratic and human rights to life...I would ****ing kill him for all the **** that he is causing Israel.

I am still waiting for an actual government to be in Israel....This is just sad -.-

And its funny how the government is claiming the schools are 2 " left winged" when infact most kids are right winged..

* awaits king bibi to censor the internet next.*
 
CrazyMcCool said:
Listen, Bibi == retarded dumbass asshole anti democratic freak of a person

and if I didn't respecect people's democratic and human rights to life...I would ****ing kill him for all the **** that he is causing Israel.

I am still waiting for an actual government to be in Israel....This is just sad -.-

And its funny how the government is claiming the schools are 2 " left winged" when infact most kids are right winged..

* awaits king bibi to censor the internet next.*
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You can probably thank Hamas for Bibi. I believe Kadima would have won the election if not for Hamas significantly upping the daily rocket barrages from September 2008 to January 2009. In a hot war environment, people generally tend to vote more hawkish. Did you never take even a moment to consider the distinct possibility that Hamas self-interest prefers a hawkish Likud Israeli government rather than a moderate Kadima Israeli government? Seems not.

You want to experience a real dictator? My mother lived in Venezuela until my sister Tashah and I got her out of there a little over a year ago. Mr. Chavez and his regime are not very tolerant towards Jews. Yet Bibi is demonetized in your vile little Ha'aretz rant. Such a brutal and incompetent dictator that you would kill him, provided your highly elevated sense of righteousness didn't intervene.

I can't speak for other Israelis on this board, but I personally detest Israelis who spew this sort of unadulterated denigration and personal malice.
 
CrazyMcCool,

With all due respect, you might have profound policy disagreements with the Netanyahu government, I believe you go too far in expressing your sentiments toward that government. The current government is legitimate (and that is not the case in various states in other parts of the world) and there is no risk that it would undermine basic individual freedoms via censorship (and even basic freedoms are restricted in numerous other countries). Shayah's point about the circumstances that enabled Likud to gain the chance to form a government is spot on. The only thing I might add to that is that had Palestinian President Abbas accepted departing Prime Minister Olmert's peace proposal, the electoral dynamic would also have favored what would then have widely been viewed as an effective Kadima government that had made a historic breakthrough. Under the scenario of eitehr no Hamas rocket offensive or a peace agreement with President Abbas, Tzipi Livni would be Prime Minister.

As Israel is a liberal democratic society, Prime Minister Netanyahu is not assured of retaining office indefinitely. If Israelis feel that his leadership is not sufficiently accommodating their needs/desires, they will choose a new government in the next round of elections.
 
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