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Without God, there are no inalienable rights

prometeus said:
Exactly. Inalienable is a figment of imagination.

Or more precisely by those who have the power in any societry.

Quite so.
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No power of any society can stop a single human thought.:peace
 
Iron Termite said:
Rights do exist, but in a more abstract term. People should be treated better than what they are now, but saying that every human has some rights that were contrived 150 years ago doesn't add up to anything. If I were enslaved under the lash of your authority and I say, " I have the right to not be a slave," that doesn't mean anything does it? why? Because I'll still be a slave to your will no matter what words I use. With the concept of intrinsic value, it is the environment in which you are governed by that affects the way you and everybody else behaves.
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Agreed. That is why it is necessary to work to secure people's inalienable rights.
 
presluc said:
No power of any society can stop a single human thought.:peace
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Sure they can. Kill the person, they can no longer think, at least not in a way that we can legitimately communicate those thoughts with others on Earth.

Now, I believe that we have rights that should not be taken away and should be true for every person. I just don't believe that those rights are due to any higher power/God, nor do I believe they are truly "inalienable", since we must fight to ensure those rights are not taken from us.
 
roguenuke said:
Sure they can. Kill the person, they can no longer think, at least not in a way that we can legitimately communicate those thoughts with others on Earth.

Now, I believe that we have rights that should not be taken away and should be true for every person. I just don't believe that those rights are due to any higher power/God, nor do I believe they are truly "inalienable", since we must fight to ensure those rights are not taken from us.
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Well they killed Lincoln his words are still quoted.
They Killed Dr. King his words are still spoken
They killed Kenndy John and Robert their words are still spoken

As for proof of my point the first 3 letters of your 2nd paragraph should be sufficient.
"Now I believe"
That is your belief not mine, that does not make you better or worse than me , it does not make me any better or worse than you.
It just makes us human with the right to think how we choose.:peace
 
You don't need to god to to arrive at inalienable rights. Natural rights can be arrived at a priori philosophical reasoning.

Plus, the Abrahamic God has a long history of violating natural rights. What sort of entity who values natural rights would order the killing of the innocent men, women, infant and sucking? (re: 1 Samuel 15:3)
 
Thunder said:
Funny how the Constitution makes NO mention of "God".
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Are all humans to follow the constitution of the United States, don't think so.
 
Antiderivative said:
You don't need to god to to arrive at inalienable rights. Natural rights can be arrived at a priori philosophical reasoning.

Plus, the Abrahamic God has a long history of violating natural rights. What sort of entity who values natural rights would order the killing of the innocent men, women, infant and sucking? (re: 1 Samuel 15:3)
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You don't have to have a faith in God to arrive at inalienable rights this is true.
However you need not be an athiest to arrive at inaleinable rights either.

Just as some say God has a long history of violating natural rights.
However,the New testement ask for and preaches love
One could just as easily question the philosophical reasoning of mankind's long history of violating bnatural rights?
What does the new testement of man preach, greed, power, and money.

What is most odd is I have not seen God violaing natural rights but I have seen Human philosophical reasoning and the aftermath.
Aka Berlin, Hiroshima, Bagdad, New York, Peal Harbor Stalingrad, Darfur, just to name a few.
What sort of philiosphical reasoning orders the killing of innocent men, women,infant, and sucking?:peace
 
presluc said:
Ah another post of complicated views
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Actually, it's exceedingly simple. The notion that man has some special rights given by God are the pinnacle of arrogance. One merely needs to examine the natural state of the world to see that there is no such things as inalienable "rights."

All of these "rights" we call "rights" are merely force backed privileges. You can kill someone and thereby deny the "right" to life when in actuality, all they had was the privilege.

I kinda like my lifestyle more on the simple side
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Then you should agree as that's as simple as it can get. Adding in an incorporeal being who grants us special rights over all other organisms is pretty complex.

I suppose every human now has to back up his priviledge to think?
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In the same fashion as a privilege to life, yes. I gave an example where that privilege could be revoked if sufficient force was applied against the force attempting to ensure that privilege.

Have you not heard the phrase "I THINK THEREFORE I AM"
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It's called a Lobotomy.

No human can stop another human from thinking unless with brain washing.
Thinking is a right not a priviledge, privledges are inforced by law not human thought.
It wasn't "I have the priviledge to think and I can back it up"
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You know, trying to defend a point I already refuted in what you quoted isn't a good tactic here. You aren't addressing my point at all, especially my point that refutes your entire basis.

You would have the human race all having priviledges to think?
Well, what of human rights are they to be tossed aside with whatever right you use as a human..
Such as the right to debate? lol:peace
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Your post is becoming quite incoherent. What the hell are you getting at?
 
presluc said:
What is the differance between saying the right to think or thought constructs or ideas?
Where these thought constructs and ideas come from or how they began is still based on theory, conjector, and faith.
Which is right has yet to be proven with hardcore evidence.:peace
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The second you can show me a right tht cannot be taken by someone against their will, you can demonstrate 'inalienable' rights. Thought comes closest but we seldom hear about the inalienable right to have a thought. Right to life. Sure...except where murders occur. Right to liberty? Nice...tell that to the slaves throughout history.
 
Yes because religion has such a great record with human rights(the Spanish Inquisition, ethnic cleansing...).
 
VanceMack said:
The second you can show me a right tht cannot be taken by someone against their will, you can demonstrate 'inalienable' rights. Thought comes closest but we seldom hear about the inalienable right to have a thought. Right to life. Sure...except where murders occur. Right to liberty? Nice...tell that to the slaves throughout history.
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You want to compare the human race's right to think as they choose against those who have lost the right to think the way they choose, anytime pal.

Just remember athiest have the right to think there is no God a sword that cuts both ways.
For just as an athiest thinks the way they choose a person who has faith in God thinks the way they choose.
There are other examples but too numerous to name.
VIVA INDIVIDUAL HUMAN THOUGHT.:peace
 
presluc said:
You want to compare the human race's right to think as they choose against those who have lost the right to think the way they choose, anytime pal.

Just remember athiest have the right to think there is no God a sword that cuts both ways.
For just as an athiest thinks the way they choose a person who has faith in God thinks the way they choose.
There are other examples but too numerous to name.
VIVA INDIVIDUAL HUMAN THOUGHT.:peace
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What to you does the word 'inalienable' mean? What to you does the word 'right' mean? You keep saying these words. I do not think they mean what you think they mean.
 
Whoppletraps said:
Yes because religion has such a great record with human rights(the Spanish Inquisition, ethnic cleansing...).
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Yeah like Mankind's philiosphical reasoning has done so much better
Revelutionary War
War of 1812
Spanish American War
World War 1
World War 2
Korean War
Viet Nam War
Cold War
Desrt Srorm
Pre-Invasion of Iraq
Afganistan
Need I go on
 
presluc said:
You don't have to have a faith in God to arrive at inalienable rights this is true.
However you need not be an athiest to arrive at inaleinable rights either.
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I never said that you did.

Just as some say God has a long history of violating natural rights.
However,the New testement ask for and preaches love
One could just as easily question the philosophical reasoning of mankind's long history of violating bnatural rights?
What does the new testement of man preach, greed, power, and money.
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Some people in this thread are claiming that natural rights were handed down by god himself. I find this most odd given god's track record of violating natural rights. Then again, wasn't man made in god's image?

What is most odd is I have not seen God violaing natural rights but I have seen Human philosophical reasoning and the aftermath.
Aka Berlin, Hiroshima, Bagdad, New York, Peal Harbor Stalingrad, Darfur, just to name a few.
What sort of philiosphical reasoning orders the killing of innocent men, women,infant, and sucking?:peace
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You haven't seen God? Wow, that is a shocker. However, much has been written about him, describing his atrocious and tyrannical acts. This whole idea that god bestowed men with natural rights is bogus, especially given god's track record. However, some theists like to give god a free pass with the new testament and pretend that the acts committed in the old testament never existed. Its like they are ashamed of their history.
 
obvious Child said:
You merely have to be completely blind to the natural world with a sense of hubris.

The rest of your post suggests you are posting under the influence.
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Any person who does not believe in and support the individual thought of the human race is not only blind but deaf and mute as well, and must follow where others lead.

Your post suggest that humans are not individual and thus all think the same YOU ARE WRONG.
For proof you submit words .
My proof is where you are posting "DEBATE" POLITICS FORUM.
 
presluc said:
Any person who does not believe in and support the individual thought of the human race is not only blind but deaf and mute as well, and must follow where others lead.

Your post suggest that humans are not individual and thus all think the same YOU ARE WRONG.
For proof you submit words .
My proof is where you are posting "DEBATE" POLITICS FORUM.
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But here is where you completely disprove your point. You post...on THIS site...because the owner has allowed you to. As long as you follow the rules of course...because if you dont you lose that PRIVELEGE afforded you. The 'right' to free speech only exists where others (governments, etc) facilitate it. It is unlikely you can speak freely in say...North Korea...Iran...China...correct?
 
Antiderivative said:
I never said that you did.



Some people in this thread are claiming that natural rights were handed down by god himself. I find this most odd given god's track record of violating natural rights. Then again, wasn't man made in god's image?



You haven't seen God? Wow, that is a shocker. However, much has been written about him, describing his atrocious and tyrannical acts. This whole idea that god bestowed men with natural rights is bogus, especially given god's track record. However, some theists like to give god a free pass with the new testament and pretend that the acts committed in the old testament never existed. Its like they are ashamed of their history.
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Some people in this thread are thinking the way they choose that might be a shock for you but after all in a Debate forum not everybody agree's with old Anti whatever.
What did you think you'd come in and sling some mud at God and the people that believe in him and everybody would just fall in line?

As far as being Bogus, Bogus is sitting up the rules of physics then changeing them for the big bang theory and then changing them back.
Bogus is to create living tissue in a vacume of nothing with an explosion that according to physics can't happen, thus breaking the laws of biology as well.

You sling mud, trash talker wear a slicker you gonna get muddy.


This whole idea that God bestowed men with natural rifghts is bogus huh?
If that is true then the history of the past falls on Mankind of course the 10 comandments would be erased so the law would be in question and those charaties well their gone.
People get too hungry they hit the streets, oh, that's right they already have.

SO athiest, I have stated I will respect others belief if they respect mine.
Evedintly you don't respect other human's right to believe how they choose, but isn't it the athiest that are always saying don't push your religion or your faith in God on me?
Who's pushing what belief on who here????

What is it you are trying to do save my brain from religion, but isn't the pushy religious types that try to save my soul in believing the way they believe the same thing?
You know some of us out here just go their own way, although we respect others we reserve the right to defend how we think.

I believe in individual rights to think or believe as one chooses , you apparently do not.
 
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