With whom would you rather serve?

aps · Sep 18, 2006

There was an article last week in the New York Times about some gay students who want to enlist but cannot because of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. Something that the article said really hit me hard:

The new debate on “don’t ask, don’t tell” also coincides with multiple deployments that are being required of many American troops by a military that has lowered its standards to allow more high school dropouts and some convicted criminals to enlist.

“Would you rather have a felon than a gay soldier?” said Capt. Scott Stanford, a heterosexual National Guard commander of a headquarters company who returned from Iraq in June. “I wouldn’t.”

What have we come to? We would rather have a convicted criminal enlisting in the service than a gay person? Incredible!

Gay Groups Renew Drive Against ‘Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell’
By LIZETTE ALVAREZ

MADISON, Wis. —The three young men who tried to enlist at an Army recruiting station here appeared to be first-rate military material.

Two were college students, and the other was a college graduate. They had no criminal records. They were fit and eager to serve at a time when wars on two fronts have put a strain on American troops and the need for qualified recruits is great.

But the recruiter was forced to turn them away, for one reason: they are gay and unwilling to conceal it.

“Don’t judge me because of my sexuality,” said one of the three, Justin Hager, 20, a self-described Republican from a military family who has “a driving desire to join” the armed forces. “Judge me because of my character and drive.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/14/us/14gay.html

ptsdkid · Sep 18, 2006

aps said:
There was an article last week in the New York Times about some gay students who want to enlist but cannot because of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. Something that the article said really hit me hard:

***I didn't read the article, nor do I know for sure, but doesn't the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy mean that gays have been allowed to serve ever since Clinton adopted that policy? 'Don't Ask, Don't Tell' suggests that the 'gay' person bypasses or gets a waiver to enlistment so long as he keeps his mouth shut about his sexual preference.

I would much rather be fighting from a foxhole with a convicted felon over a gay person. Whom would you feel safer with in a tense firefight--a gay that probably would feel more comfortable in a passive milieu hugging his prize teddy bear, or a rage-filled convicted felon that probably has experience in shooting at other people?

What have we come to? We would rather have a convicted criminal enlisting in the service than a gay person? Incredible!

***The answer is a resounding YES!

TurtleDude · Sep 18, 2006

depends on the crime among other things. If its someone who was caught smoking weed at a Grateful Dead Concert or possessing a "banned weapon" that is much different than a serial murderer.

Goobieman · Sep 18, 2006

aps said:
There was an article last week in the New York Times about some gay students who want to enlist but cannot because of the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy. Something that the article said really hit me hard:
What have we come to? We would rather have a convicted criminal enlisting in the service than a gay person? Incredible!

"Don't ask, don't tell" was Bill Clinton's doing.
Blame him.

jamesrage · Sep 18, 2006

aps,

Gays are allowed to serve so your point is mute.

Goobieman · Sep 18, 2006

jamesrage said:
aps,
Gays are allowed to serve so your point is mute.

That's right.

The issue here is Clinton's utterly barbaric edict that they cannot serve if they are open about their homosexualty.

What a wholly and completely unenlightened man, Clinton.

aps · Sep 18, 2006

jamesrage said:
aps,

Gays are allowed to serve so your point is mute.

Openly gay people are not allowed to serve.

Goobieman · Sep 18, 2006

aps said:
Openly gay people are not allowed to serve.

Why is that?
Who created the policy that prohibits them from serving?
What sort of simpleton would do such a thing?

:mrgreen:

ptsdkid · Sep 18, 2006

Goobieman said:
Why is that?
Who created the policy that prohibits them from serving?
What sort of simpleton would do such a thing?

:mrgreen:

***Why the answer to that question is Bill Clinton--Aps's favorite president.

Goobieman · Sep 18, 2006

ptsdkid said:
***Why the answer to that question is Bill Clinton--Aps's favorite president.

I dont think you'll see aps address this issue any further.

Gardener · Sep 18, 2006

I would want to serve with a person of good character. Since homosexuality is obviously not a character issue, then all I would require is honesty, integrity and all that. If a person had been convicted of a crime, I would like to know the nature of the crime and especially their degree of repetance.

erasamus snoggle · Sep 18, 2006

When I was in the military ('68~'88), I served with both those who had been convicted of various minor crimes as well as gays. As with any other individuas who were either drafted or chose to enlist, some were good soliders, some couldn't cut it.

aps · Sep 18, 2006

ptsdkid said:
***Why the answer to that question is Bill Clinton--Aps's favorite president.

LMAO! I wouldn't say he was my favorite president, but he's up there.

Goobieman · Sep 18, 2006

aps said:
LMAO! I wouldn't say he was my favorite president, but he's up there.

Even thought it's his fault the gay guys in the story cannot serve in the military?
:lol:

aps · Sep 18, 2006

Goobieman said:
Even thought it's his fault the gay guys in the story cannot serve in the military?
:lol:

I think his "don't ask" policy was a loosening of the rules, no? If I recall correctly, at the time people enlist in the service, they complete a "Report of Medical History." One of the questions in the past was "Have you ever had or have now homosexual tendencies?" I thought that if someone answered yes, they were out. However, I must admit that I don't know much about this issue prior to Clinton's policy. If you feel like telling me, I would love to read your take.

Calm2Chaos · Sep 18, 2006

Do the gay men/woman have seperate showers, barracks and such from the straight men?

Is the convicted criminal gay? And what was he convicted of?

DeeJayH · Sep 18, 2006

aps said:
I think his "don't ask" policy was a loosening of the rules, no? If I recall correctly, at the time people enlist in the service, they complete a "Report of Medical History." One of the questions in the past was "Have you ever had or have now homosexual tendencies?" I thought that if someone answered yes, they were out. However, I must admit that I don't know much about this issue prior to Clinton's policy. If you feel like telling me, I would love to read your take.

so when Clinton enacted it, it was progress
but since Bush still uses it, it is INCREDIBLE. a case of 'What have we come to?'
Oh the Humanity :doh
gotcha :roll:

Captain America · Sep 18, 2006

Goobieman said:
Why is that?
Who created the policy that prohibits them from serving?
What sort of simpleton would do such a thing?

:mrgreen:

I suppose during that time that's as close to a compromise that could have been achieved.

So Goobie, you are advocating that openly gays should be able to serve in the military? Good for you!

Goobieman · Sep 18, 2006

aps said:
I think his "don't ask" policy was a loosening of the rules, no? If I recall correctly, at the time people enlist in the service, they complete a "Report of Medical History." One of the questions in the past was "Have you ever had or have now homosexual tendencies?" I thought that if someone answered yes, they were out. However, I must admit that I don't know much about this issue prior to Clinton's policy. If you feel like telling me, I would love to read your take.

The policy previous to DADT is meaningless, as you find the --current-- policy absurd, unreasonable, archaic, bitoger, homophobic, whatever -- and isnt the purpose of this poll to illustrate just how unenlightened the policy really is?

Like I said - Clinton put it there. Blame him.

aps · Sep 18, 2006

DeeJayH said:
so when Clinton enacted it, it was progress
but since Bush still uses it, it is INCREDIBLE. a case of 'What have we come to?'
Oh the Humanity :doh
gotcha :roll:

DeeJay, for a change , I have not criticized George Bush in this thread.

Goobieman · Sep 18, 2006

Captain America said:
I suppose during that time that's as close to a compromise that could have been achieved.

So Goobie, you are advocating that openly gays should be able to serve in the military? Good for you!

Hardly.
I know aps is a Clinton fan.
I think she didnt know that Clinton instituted DADT, and so when she started this poll she didnt have a clue that she'd have no one but Clinton to blame for it.

You note she's trying to avoid doing that. :2razz:

Goobieman · Sep 18, 2006

aps said:
DeeJay, for a change , I have not criticized George Bush in this thread.

No - but I'll bet you though you were going to be able to.

And you havent criticized Clinton, either... why not?

aps · Sep 18, 2006

Goobieman said:
Hardly.
I know aps is a Clinton fan.
I think she didnt know that Clinton instituted DADT, and so when she started this poll she didnt have a clue that she'd have no one but Clinton to blame for it.

You note she's trying to avoid doing that. :2razz:

Goobieman, I may be ignorant about lots of stuff, but I am fully aware that Clinton instituted this. I don't like this policy and think it should be eliminated--no matter who instituted it.

aps · Sep 18, 2006

Goobieman said:
No - but I'll bet you though you were going to be able to.

And you havent criticized Clinton, either... why not?

My issue was solely with the policy--not who started it.

aps · Sep 18, 2006

Goobieman said:
Hardly.
I know aps is a Clinton fan.
I think she didnt know that Clinton instituted DADT, and so when she started this poll she didnt have a clue that she'd have no one but Clinton to blame for it.

You note she's trying to avoid doing that. :2razz:

Allright! Allright! Clinton is an a$$hole! Is that what you're looking for?

With whom would you rather serve?

With whom would you rather serve?

A convicted criminal

A gay person

Neither

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