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With pretty much the whole world against Putin, how is he going to get himself out of the mess he's created?

It reminds me of the US's 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Maybe Putin believed disinformation about Ukraine like Team Bush did about Iraq.

It's much, much worse of a miscalculation than our 2003 adventure - and I agree ours was bad. But we didn't crash our markets or our currency, and we didn't even really lose any friends. We just put ourselves in a position where we lost some global credibility.
 
someone will have to give him something that they don't want to give him.
 
So with million in harm's way tonight you are worried about gas prices? We can live without his bloody oil.

He does not care about anyone except his fake god Trump the Terrorist.

I care about gasoline and diesel prices because I am a patriot. But if I could drive, I would rather pay $4 per gallon than hear a bomb going off and see smoke outside the car windows.
 
After watching Trump in action for so many years and getting by with so much outrageous behavior (and also personal experience with bosses in positions of power in my younger days), I have come to understand that it is really very hard to bring down or hold accountable people in positions of great power. They just have too many people dependent on them and too many resources to help them get out of tight spots.

 
It's much, much worse of a miscalculation than our 2003 adventure - and I agree ours was bad. But we didn't crash our markets or our currency, and we didn't even really lose any friends. We just put ourselves in a position where we lost some global credibility.
I'm not sure it was a worse miscalculation in terms of the actual policy; rather, the REACTIONS were less because the US had the power to make the world go along with its war, while the world is uniting against Putin.
 
Putin could have expected a quick thrust ending in a fait accompli.

Ukraine is putting up stiffer resistance than most pundits expected. It should not have been. it isn't like this attack was not signaled well in advance.
 
It seems to me the most likely ways this ends are:

- Putin is overthrown

Or short of that, those with enough power to challenge him push for reforms, constitutional revisions, and something closer to real elections. Putin's most loyal supporters are probably those within the domestic security and law enforcement apparatus. They likely owe Putin their positions, government paychecks, power, and other privileges. But in any country - even ours - when it really comes down to it, the military is the last line. They can preserve a political regime; they can destroy it, too.

- Putin decided to have humiliation and withdraw, trying to extract whatever face-saving concessions he can form the west for doing so, a bit like Khrushchev's withdrawal from Cuba.

Except Russia actually did get some meaningful concessions in 1962. We had to remove our missiles in Turkey and Italy.

- Putin uses nuclear blackmail to try to force the west to accept concessions

It's not an empty threat, IMO.

- Putin unleashes his military more powerfully and gets enough of a 'victory' in Ukraine to declare victory and withdraw, leaving the west to ask how long to continue the sanctions and what the goal is

Putin may end up offering a deal in which he agrees to withdraw his forces from the whole of Ukraine but that he will keep supporting Luhansk, Donetsk, and Crimea. In other words, all that for nothing. He accepts defeat in Eastern Ukraine, but he doesn't have to admit a defeat. He can claim that it was necessary to make Ukraine realize that they can never retake Western Ukraine's territory, that it's independent territory now.

This would actually be the best exit under the circumstances because it could open up a possible debate and become a source of disagreement among all the nations currently supporting Ukraine. Some will argue that Putin needs to leave all of Ukraine, including the Donbas and Crimea, but maybe there are a few others who might say "Let's quit while Putin's thinking rationally. He's admitting defeat. He's leaving Ukraine."

I wrote a post earlier for discussion I didn't post asking, what if Putin launched one nuclear missile at an unpopulated area as a start to escalating nuclear blackmail? How would the west respond?

A tactical nuclear weapon is a real possibility, and I'd say that it would probably be a scenario close to the one you described above. Either an unpopulated area, or a 'military' or 'industrial' target. I think the chances of this actually happening are rare, but I'm trying to get inside Putin's head a little. Based on his prior behavior, he's certainly capable of it.
 
So with million in harm's way tonight you are worried about gas prices? We can live without his bloody oil.
Yes we can if only the cognitively declined turd currently occupying the White House would relent on his climate change zealotry and allow our oil industry to produce more domestic oil.
 
Except Russia actually did get some meaningful concessions in 1962. We had to remove our missiles in Turkey and Italy.

I mentioned getting some concessions - though it's reported Kennedy had already ordered the withdrawal of the Turkey missiles for other reasons.

It's not an empty threat, IMO.

Didn't say it was.
 
I mentioned getting some concessions - though it's reported Kennedy had already ordered the withdrawal of the Turkey missiles for other reasons.



Didn't say it was.

I wasn't disagreeing with you
 
Iran and China won't want to involve themselves in this. Too messy for their liking.
Oh, I wouldnt be too sure. Iran is a country in need of allies, and China has their sights set on Taiwan. At the very least, to be able to further their ties with Russia and hurt the west with Russia's fuel could make for a very tempting carrot.
 
Yes we can if only the cognitively declined turd currently occupying the White House would relent on his climate change zealotry and allow our oil industry to produce more domestic oil.
Biden cannot control the production of oil and the oil companies are more interested in keeping oil prices high than keeping production up. They love you to blame Biden for their greed too.
 
Or short of that, those with enough power to challenge him push for reforms, constitutional revisions, and something closer to real elections. Putin's most loyal supporters are probably those within the domestic security and law enforcement apparatus. They likely owe Putin their positions, government paychecks, power, and other privileges. But in any country - even ours - when it really comes down to it, the military is the last line. They can preserve a political regime; they can destroy it, too.



Except Russia actually did get some meaningful concessions in 1962. We had to remove our missiles in Turkey and Italy.



It's not an empty threat, IMO.



Putin may end up offering a deal in which he agrees to withdraw his forces from the whole of Ukraine but that he will keep supporting Luhansk, Donetsk, and Crimea. In other words, all that for nothing. He accepts defeat in Eastern Ukraine, but he doesn't have to admit a defeat. He can claim that it was necessary to make Ukraine realize that they can never retake Western Ukraine's territory, that it's independent territory now.

This would actually be the best exit under the circumstances because it could open up a possible debate and become a source of disagreement among all the nations currently supporting Ukraine. Some will argue that Putin needs to leave all of Ukraine, including the Donbas and Crimea, but maybe there are a few others who might say "Let's quit while Putin's thinking rationally. He's admitting defeat. He's leaving Ukraine."



A tactical nuclear weapon is a real possibility, and I'd say that it would probably be a scenario close to the one you described above. Either an unpopulated area, or a 'military' or 'industrial' target. I think the chances of this actually happening are rare, but I'm trying to get inside Putin's head a little. Based on his prior behavior, he's certainly capable of it.
Putin would have to admit to the world that his much vaulted armed forces are not up to defeating a much smaller army without nukes. I doubt that he wants the world to see such a failure. Not to mention that Russia will suffer a total blockade if he detonated a nuke in Ukraine. We will learn to live with his oil and the Russian economy will collapse.
 
Or whatever his obvious condition is, will finally take him.
I'm suspecting there's a rumor on Fox that there is something physically wrong with Putin?
 
Biden cannot control the production of oil
Who do you think controls the leases on federal land where a significant portion of oil is drilled?
and the oil companies are more interested in keeping oil prices high than keeping production up. They love you to blame Biden for their greed too.
No actually they would like to keep the prices low. They make more profits in the long run if they do. As for greed, the government makes more on a gallon of gas then the oil companies do.
 
Except for creating a one-party rule that caused mass suffering and death to people who did not agree with it, was Adolf Hitler really that much worse than Vlaidimir Putin? No, I am not ignoring the fact that he killed six million of his own people.
I’ve no way of knowing the true level of evil in Putin or Hitler’s minds, but as far as objective proof, Hitler absolutely was a **** ton of a lot worse than Putin is.
 
I’ve no way of knowing the true level of evil in Putin or Hitler’s minds, but as far as objective proof, Hitler absolutely was a ton of a lot worse than Putin is.

In terms of wanting to own more territory and making an empire, yes. I am strictly considering their mindset to steal land from sovereign countries by force. Was it only the amount of successes he had (taking whole countries, not just part of one) or also why he did it, that made Hitler much worse than Putin is in how much land they wanted, of course.
 
In terms of wanting to own more territory and making an empire, yes. I am strictly considering their mindset to steal land from sovereign countries by force. Was it only the amount of successes he had (taking whole countries, not just part of one) or also why he did it it that made Hitler much worse than Putin is in how much land they wanted, of course.
Same tactics as Hitler though, foster discord and build a separatist movement, then use that as an excuse to invade. Hitler did much the same against Poland.
 
In terms of wanting to own more territory and making an empire, yes. I am strictly considering their mindset to steal land from sovereign countries by force. Was it only the amount of successes he had (taking whole countries, not just part of one) or also why he did it, that made Hitler much worse than Putin is in how much land they wanted, of course.
First, you pose an “aside from that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln” question.

Now you’re trying to compare Hitler and Putin, but only in very specific, limited ways?

Sorry, but not the kind of conversation I’m interest in.
 
First, you pose an “aside from that, how was the play, Mrs. Lincoln” question.

Now you’re trying to compare Hitler and Putin, but only in very specific, limited ways?

Sorry, but not the kind of conversation I’m interest in.

It was just a thought experiment that failed. I am not trying to compare them.
 
Russia is virtually a 3rd world county in economic shambles.
I have yet to see a 3rd world country (except China) amass a military armada as Putin has right now.

Putin had 21 years as president/PM to plan this war with 2014 just being a small test.
 
Will he turn against his own people with military violence like Hitler did

Huh? When did Hitler do that?

And this isnt WWII, Putin isnt Hitler, and there aren't really any similarities to Hitler, Nazi Germany, or WWII at all imo.

Putin can always declare victory at any time and leave. I hope thats what he does, but I have no real knowledge of that situation other than what I've read in media.
 
I have yet to see a 3rd world country (except China) amass a military armada as Putin has right now.

Putin had 21 years as president/PM to plan this war with 2014 just being a small test.

China isnt really a "3rd world country" tho.
 
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