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With pretty much the whole world against Putin, how is he going to get himself out of the mess he's created?

Regarding China, the US - and democracy - is much their bigger enemy than Russia. Russia is much more their 'enemy of their enemy'. The Chinese government is constantly telling its people the US is their enemy. Iran is more complicated - we've given them a lot of reason to hate the US government, but the Iranian people seem to like the US people a lot.
The Iranian people/Persians are smart enough to differentiate between the people and the action of their government. They hate their own theocratic government and tried to overthrow it. They would love to have a more western-style government as they had under Mossedeq before we overthrew him in 1954. We should treat them likewise. Iran could be a very powerful ally for the US.

It seems to me the most likely ways this ends are:

- Putin is overthrown
- Putin decided to have humiliation and withdraw, trying to extract whatever face-saving concessions he can form the west for doing so, a bit like Khrushchev's withdrawal from Cuba.
- Putin uses nuclear blackmail to try to force the west to accept concessions
- Nuclear catastrophe

I wrote a post earlier for discussion I didn't post asking, what if Putin launched one nuclear missile at an unpopulated area as a start to escalating nuclear blackmail? How would the west respond?
We would not wait to see where it landed before we launched a nuclear counter strike. It would be too late. Putin knows that would be a suicide mission. We have nuclear weapons in the gulf and the Med' that would obliterate Russia and he knows that. Israel, plus India, and Pakistan are all members of the nuclear club would not wait. Saudi might have nukes as well.
 
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"With pretty much the whole world against Putin, how is he going to get himself out of the mess he's created?"

He doesn't have to. Russia is the largest country on Earth with the most resources.
 
I don't know. Russia's got a powerful military machine and its turned on Ukraine right now.
They are not indiscriminately bombing/shelling at this point, from what I can tell, but they are making steady progress.
I fear we haven't really seen Putin turn up the heat yet, and he has plenty of ammunition left in his stores. The unified front against Russia at every level other than sending troops/direct intervention, is awesome no doubt. But Putin has a big military, and this is right next door, I sadly think the worst is yet to come.
 
The Iranian people/Persians are smart enough to differentiate between the people and the action of their government. They hate their own theocratic government and tried to overthrow it. They would love to have a more western-style government as they had under Mossedeq before we overthrew him in 1954. We should treat them likewise. Iran could be a very powerful ally for the US.
An ironic thing is that the US had allied so much and empowered so much the Islamic forces like those who took over Iran, that some in the US government thought we'd have no problem having them as an ally - and indeed, Reagan worked with them pretty well on some things.
 
Well...if he shuts off all the energy fuels he sends westward, I imagine that will cause a little concern, especially if China and Iran throw in their financial support. Or instead of shutting it off he can just jack up the prices.
Iran and China won't want to involve themselves in this. Too messy for their liking.
 
"With pretty much the whole world against Putin, how is he going to get himself out of the mess he's created?"

He doesn't have to. Russia is the largest country on Earth with the most resources.
Russia is virtually a 3rd world county in economic shambles.
 
I don't know. Russia's got a powerful military machine and its turned on Ukraine right now.
:LOL:

That powerful military machine is getting it's ass smeared by a country that is outmanned 2 to 1.
 
It seems to me the most likely ways this ends are:

- Putin is overthrown
- Putin decided to have humiliation and withdraw, trying to extract whatever face-saving concessions he can form the west for doing so, a bit like Khrushchev's withdrawal from Cuba.
- Putin uses nuclear blackmail to try to force the west to accept concessions
- Putin unleashes his military more powerfully and gets enough of a 'victory' in Ukraine to declare victory and withdraw, leaving the west to ask how long to continue the sanctions and what the goal is
- Nuclear catastrophe

#4 seems perhaps the most likely.

I wrote a post earlier for discussion I didn't post asking, what if Putin launched one nuclear missile at an unpopulated area as a start to escalating nuclear blackmail? How would the west respond?
It'd be the end of him. One way or another, the rest of the world would find a way to squash him like a cockroach.
 
Russia is virtually a 3rd world county in economic shambles.
And it's getting worse by the day now that they've been basically cut off from most foreign monetary reserves.
 
:LOL:

That powerful military machine is getting it's ass smeared by a country that is outmanned 2 to 1.
It's mostly poorly trained conscripts with low morale. Their heart is not in this fight.

And it's getting worse by the day now that they've been basically cut off from most foreign monetary reserves.
Putin had very little to gain and a lot to lose by invading Ukraine. This will be remembered as one of the worst foreign policy decisions, along with the US invading Iraq in 2003, as well as Vietnam.
 
Not only has he started a war but his own people are starting to seriously suffer and protest against him. Will he turn against his own people with military violence like Hitler did before his downfall?
He can stop any time he wants...and then all he has to do is raise energy prices on the EU...and the sanctions will magically disappear.
 
Team Bush didn't believe disinformation about Iraq, they created misinformation about Iraq - just as Putin created false flags about Ukraine attacking Russia.

they in fact DID believe disinformation AND they lied.

This **** right here by Laura Bush at the State of the Union, Ahmad Chalabi, was an Iranian agent who gained special access to Team Bush and filled their heads with shit about a cake walk.
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they in fact DID believe disinformation AND they lied.

This **** right here by Laura Bush at the State of the Union, Ahmad Chalabi, was an Iranian agent who gained special access to Team Bush and filled their heads with shit about a cake walk.

You have the cause and effect backwards. We chose Chalabi because he'd be our puppet and say the things we wanted him to say. Other parts of our government knew what a terrible figure he was and terrible plan it was to back him, and managed to sabotage the plan publicly ruining Chalabi's credibility, saving us from that disaster - but not the different disaster Rumsfeld caused.
 
He can stop any time he wants...and then all he has to do is raise energy prices on the EU...and the sanctions will magically disappear.

Have you let Putin know about your plan?

I like you idea much better than Putin's idea of flinging nukes

Please let Putin know so Putin can stop talking about starting nuclear war.
 
You have the cause and effect backwards. We chose Chalabi because he'd be our puppet and say the things we wanted him to say. Other parts of our government knew what a terrible figure he was and terrible plan it was to back him, and managed to sabotage the plan publicly ruining Chalabi's credibility, saving us from that disaster - but not the different disaster Rumsfeld caused.

I don't.

But I am uninterested in re-hashing it at the moment.
 
And it's getting worse by the day now that they've been basically cut off from most foreign monetary reserves.
Putin had very little to gain and a lot to lose by invading Ukraine. This will be remembered as one of the worst foreign policy decisions, along with the US invading Iraq in 2003, as well as Vietnam.
They created the OSP to justify their beliefs when the USIC failed to support those beliefs.
When the facts don't support your decisions you make up your own facts. This is one of the reasons that I was very vocal in my opposition to the 2003 Iraq war. It was fairly obvious from the start it would a disaster because I get my news from the BBC and other sources that weren't being spoon-fed by the US government. This is one of the reasons that I learned some Arabic so I could listen to the news sources from the middle east.
 
I don't.

But I am uninterested in re-hashing it at the moment.

Ya, some guy named Chalabi showed up and totally turned around US policy by fooling all of our top government.

Quite a guy.
 
Ya, some guy named Chalabi showed up and totally turned around US policy by fooling all of our top government.

Quite a guy.
Sure is a fancy strawman you built for yourself.

You did all that just to whup the thing to pieces?

Good for you.
 
Have you let Putin know about your plan?

I like you idea much better than Putin's idea of flinging nukes

Please let Putin know so Putin can stop talking about starting nuclear war.
Oh...don't get triggered by his talk about nukes. That won't happen. That's just his way of doing what N. Korea does when they fire off a missile.

I don't need to tell Putin what to do. He knows.
 
Sure is a fancy strawman you built for yourself.

Not replying because you don't get to have it both ways, saying you don't want to discuss it but posting anyway.
 
Say what you will there's something wrong with a man who does stuff like this.

 
Not only has he started a war but his own people are starting to seriously suffer and protest against him. Will he turn against his own people with military violence like Hitler did before his downfall?

After watching Trump in action for so many years and getting by with so much outrageous behavior (and also personal experience with bosses in positions of power in my younger days), I have come to understand that it is really very hard to bring down or hold accountable people in positions of great power. They just have too many people dependent on them and too many resources to help them get out of tight spots. Not saying it can't happen- just don't really expect it, and would actually be surprised if it did. It's a fantasy for us to think some big powerful bully will finally be brought to justice. But that rarely ever happens. For every 100 narcissists and bullies, maybe only a handful at most may get some kind of comeuppance. Who said life was fair?



Now if you are some poor black guy in Philly caught shoplifting some gum at the local 7-11... well, now that's a whole different story. Your life itself may be forfeit.
 
Putin doesn’t have the level of control over the Russian military that Hitler did, his. If Putin were crazy enough to try to control the civilian populace with military force, it would be disastrous for all.

Except for creating a one-party rule that caused mass suffering and death to people who did not agree with it, was Adolf Hitler really that much worse than Vlaidimir Putin? No, I am not ignoring the fact that he killed six million of his own people.
 
Well...if he shuts off all the energy fuels he sends westward, I imagine that will cause a little concern, especially if China and Iran throw in their financial support. Or instead of shutting it off he can just jack up the prices.
So with million in harm's way tonight you are worried about gas prices? We can live without his bloody oil.
 
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